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Author Topic:   Contradictions between Genesis 1-2
Creationist
Member (Idle past 5675 days)
Posts: 95
Joined: 10-19-2007


Message 32 of 308 (438043)
12-02-2007 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Force
11-27-2007 8:56 PM


quote:
1) Genesis 1:31 because everything God created was complete after 6 days but in Genesis 2:4 LORD God created the heavens and earth in a day.
The word day, of course, can be used to mean different time periods. Just like todays use of our English word day. There is no contradiction here. If a grandfather was to tell his grandson, "In my day, we used to walk to school up hill barefoot in the snow." He would be referring to a specific time period. Verse four in Chapter 2 of Genesis is doing the same thing. So the question now becomes how do we know which day is being used in Genesis 1. Well, it can get a little complicated but to make a long story short, it is because of the use of the words "morning and evening" and a number. Such as first, second, third, etc. Whenever yom is used in this way it almost always denotes a regular 24 hour day.
quote:
2) Genesis 1:27 because God created male and female at the same time but according to Genesis 2:5-20 LORD God created male and then created female later(2:20).
Genesis 1:27 does not say he created male and female at the same time, only that He created both male and female people.
quote:
3) The word God/Elohim is used in Genesis 1:1-31, 2:1-3 but in Genesis 2:4-25 LORD God/YHWH Elohim is used.
Elohim is used in Genesis one because it denotes an all powerful God above His creation and all things created. YHWH is used in Genesis two because it denotes God's personal relationship with man.
quote:
4) The overall order of creation in Genesis 1:1-31, 2:1-3 is different than in Genesis 2:4-25.
Geneis 2 is not the creation account. Genesis one is. Genesis two is a more detailed account of Day six in Genesis one. So it is not meant to be in any particular order.
quote:
5) Genesis 1:1-31, 2:1-3 the creation story seems to be more sophisticated than the creation story in Genesis 2:4-25.
Only if you consider Genesis two a creation story, which, of course, it isn't. But even if it were, would that constitute a contradiction? I don't think so.
quote:
6) Genesis 1:1-31, 2:1-3 each thing created was considered good but in Genesis 2:5-20 it seems creation was a process of trial and error.
Don't understand what you mean by this. What trial and error?
quote:
7) Genesis 1:26 because there seems to be more than God creating but in Genesis 2:4-25 there is only LORD God creating.
Genesis 1:26 is a reference to the Trinity. God, Son, and Holy Spirit. Check out John 1:1-3 where John is clearly referring to Jesus, yet says Jesus created all things.
quote:
8) Genesis 1:29 because all plants are available for eating but in Genesis 2:16-17 some plants are off limits to eat.
In the beginning all things were vegetarian. Man, and animals. There was only one tree that was off limits to man, and that was the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil." All other trees were fair game, including the tree of "Life".
quote:
9) Genesis 1:28 because humans subdue the earth but in Genesis 2:15 humans serve the earth.
This is one of the things that is most often misunderstood. By subdue, God was placing men as stewards over His creation. The word subdue here does not mean that man was to misuse the world, but be in dominion over it and to be good stewards over it.
quote:
10) Genesis 1:21-22 because the purpose for animals is not related to humans but in Genesis 2:18-19 the purpoose for animals is related to humans.
The purpose of Genesis 2:18-19 was to show Adam, and you and me, that animals and man are different. We didn't evolve from an animal, because we were different from the beginning.
Hope this helps you.
Edited by Creationist, : No reason given.
Edited by Creationist, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Force, posted 11-27-2007 8:56 PM Force has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by iceage, posted 12-02-2007 3:56 PM Creationist has replied
 Message 39 by Force, posted 12-02-2007 4:48 PM Creationist has replied

Creationist
Member (Idle past 5675 days)
Posts: 95
Joined: 10-19-2007


Message 36 of 308 (438050)
12-02-2007 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by iceage
12-02-2007 3:56 PM


Re: Man is an Animal.
quote:
Why do Chimpanzees and other primates share a significant percentage of DNA?
By share, I assume you mean similar DNA? Well, to begin with, this could just as easily point to a common designer as common ancestor. Cars all share similar parts, yet a Mac Truck did not evolve from a Volkswagon. They are finding out all the time that human and chimp DNA are not all that similar after all, I believe the latest count is that they are only 95% identical. Of course, a 2% difference is very huge when considering DNA.
quote:
Why do we have similar non-transcribed DNA (such as endogenous retrovirus remnants) as other primates in a manner that _strongly_ suggests a common heritage and an hierarchical order.
I'm not real familiar with this, but could you list what retovirus remnants we share with chimps?
quote:
Why is our chromosomes structure so similar?
Again, this is not any more proof of comman ancestry than it is of common designer.
quote:
Why would god make us so close to other primates if he wanted to demonstrate that we are somehow different. Did god also have a fondness for monkeys?
Why use something different when what is being use works so well?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by DrJones*, posted 12-02-2007 4:36 PM Creationist has replied
 Message 38 by Chiroptera, posted 12-02-2007 4:39 PM Creationist has replied

Creationist
Member (Idle past 5675 days)
Posts: 95
Joined: 10-19-2007


Message 42 of 308 (438198)
12-03-2007 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by DrJones*
12-02-2007 4:36 PM


Re: Man is an Animal.
So god is incapable of coming up with entirely novel designs for organisms
Obviously not, since all organisms are entirely novel designs. Even though the DNA of monkeys and humans may be similar, there is enough difference, obviously, for them to be two different organisms. Just like the Mac Truck and the Volkswagon.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by DrJones*, posted 12-02-2007 4:36 PM DrJones* has not replied

Creationist
Member (Idle past 5675 days)
Posts: 95
Joined: 10-19-2007


Message 43 of 308 (438201)
12-03-2007 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Chiroptera
12-02-2007 4:39 PM


Re: Man is an Animal.
But I agree. There is nothing in the Bible to suggest that the creator had unlimited intelligence or unlimited power, so it is very likely that such a creator would be forced by necessity to reuse designs to meet its 6 day deadline.
Ge:18:14: Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
Jer:32:17: Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:
Jer:32:27: Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?
It is not that He could not do it, or wasn't smart enough to do it, it is that He CHOSE to do it this way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Chiroptera, posted 12-02-2007 4:39 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Creationist
Member (Idle past 5675 days)
Posts: 95
Joined: 10-19-2007


Message 44 of 308 (438202)
12-03-2007 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Force
12-02-2007 4:48 PM


tthzr3
I have realized that everything you posted in response to OP1 is an interpretation that is based on sources that contradict each other. So, I am not going to accept your information on this topic as plausible because it has no evidence.
And I realize that all of your so called contradictions are based on faulty interpretations due to lack of understanding. So, I will not accept any of them as evidence for contradictions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Force, posted 12-02-2007 4:48 PM Force has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 12-03-2007 11:07 AM Creationist has replied

Creationist
Member (Idle past 5675 days)
Posts: 95
Joined: 10-19-2007


Message 46 of 308 (438208)
12-03-2007 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by jar
12-03-2007 11:07 AM


Re: On text
Not exactly. The facts are, that's what the tales say.
Exactly, and if you have a problem understanding what they say, then it is your lack of understanding that is at fault, which does not constitute a contradiction. All I have to do is give you a reasonable explanation, you, on the other hand, must prove your allegation.
It is not a matter of interpretation, it is a matter of honesty and admitting what is actually written.
Not exactly. The written word has to be interpreted. So interpretation does matter.
It does not much matter what you accept, denial of reality and truth is still denial of reality and truth.
Exactly, and it goes both ways. The truth is the truth whether you believe it or not.
To not accept the contradictions is to be willfully ignorant.
To not accept the explanation is to remain willfully ignorant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 12-03-2007 11:07 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by jar, posted 12-03-2007 11:57 AM Creationist has replied

Creationist
Member (Idle past 5675 days)
Posts: 95
Joined: 10-19-2007


Message 48 of 308 (438220)
12-03-2007 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by jar
12-03-2007 11:57 AM


Re: On text
But I can prove my "allegation", I can point to the Bible.
You can indeed point to the Bible but that far from proves your allegation.
That's called the theology of "If I squint real hard and hold my tongue just right maybe I can make up some story to let me ignore the truth." It's sad because by doing so you trivialize GOD miss out on what the Bible has to say.
And this is called a straw man argument. Do you deny the written word has to be interpreted? For instance, what you just wrote has to be interpreted. How do I trivialize God by believing what He says? You, on the other hand, are calling Him a liar, or at the very least a deciever.
The facts are that in the two stories the order is different, the methods of creation are different, even the descriptions of the gods are different.
The facts are that the two chapters are NOT two different creation accounts. One is a more detailed account of day six, while the other is a detailed account of the whole creation.
http://www.tektonics.org/jedp/creationtwo.html
Again, the names used for God depends on what role God is in at the time. Genesis one uses Elohim. This is the plural of El. El corrosponds to God in English, Theos in Greek, and Deus in Latin. El means the "strong one", and stresses the omnipotence and power of God the Creator and Ruler over all nature and the universe.
Elohim is the plural of El and means "more than two". However, (and this is where interpretation of the written word comes in handy)it does not mean "In the beginning gods created..." because it is used here, and over 2000 times in the rest of the OT, in the singular, that is, with a singular verb (or adjective). By using the term Elohim we are being told that there is something plural about God Himself.
In Genesis two, Moses adds the Hebrew term Yahweh. Yahweh is transliterated in English as Jehovah, and is usually spelled LORD in large and small capitals. Yahweh is the personal name of the living God. It means "I am that I am" which means He is the Self-Existent One. The reason why Moses uses it in Chapter 2 is because it (Chapter 2) describes God's personal relationship with the first human pair, Adam and Eve. When dealing with someone personally, you have to use a personal name. Yahweh is used here because it is required. It is always used as Yahweh Elohim, or the LORD God. So it tells us that the Supreme Creator (Elohim) has a personal name (Yahweh)or the One who is intimately concerned to maintain a personal relationship with those who will walk and talk with Him.
Those are what is in the book. That's what the Book says.
Indeed that is what is in the book, however, that certainly isn't what it is saying.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by jar, posted 12-03-2007 11:57 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by ringo, posted 12-03-2007 1:36 PM Creationist has replied
 Message 50 by EighteenDelta, posted 12-03-2007 1:36 PM Creationist has replied
 Message 51 by jar, posted 12-03-2007 1:36 PM Creationist has replied

Creationist
Member (Idle past 5675 days)
Posts: 95
Joined: 10-19-2007


Message 52 of 308 (438233)
12-03-2007 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by ringo
12-03-2007 1:36 PM


Re: On text
The claim that Genesis 1 and 2 are the same story is a bad interpretation, because it doesn't convey the actual message. Anybody who interprets it that way is pushing his own agenda (trying to sell cheese, perhaps) instead of interpreting honestly.
I agree

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by ringo, posted 12-03-2007 1:36 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by ringo, posted 12-03-2007 2:41 PM Creationist has replied

Creationist
Member (Idle past 5675 days)
Posts: 95
Joined: 10-19-2007


Message 53 of 308 (438235)
12-03-2007 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by EighteenDelta
12-03-2007 1:36 PM


Re: On text
In the first account, fowl are created on the fifth day. Beasts of the field are created on the sixth day, but before humans. The supposed "more detailed account of day six," has god creating the 'fowl of the air' and 'beasts of the land' after humans and before woman. You continue to fail to address that glaring inconsistency.
Some people try to explain this away by saying that Gen. 2:19 should read "the Lord God brought to Adam what He "had" formed. But I don't buy that. There is nothing in Scripture that suggests that God could not have created fowls and animals of what He had already created just to bring to Adam to name. At any rate, it does not imply an order of creation which you seem to think.
You obviously are also using terms you fail to understand, such as 'straw man argument'. It's transparent how much you don't know what this means.
Since the whole thread here is based on someone alleging the Bible to be saying what it is not saying, then yes, it is a straw man.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by EighteenDelta, posted 12-03-2007 1:36 PM EighteenDelta has not replied

Creationist
Member (Idle past 5675 days)
Posts: 95
Joined: 10-19-2007


Message 55 of 308 (438246)
12-03-2007 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by jar
12-03-2007 1:36 PM


Re: On text
Well, there is no indications that either God or Moshe ever wrote anything other than perhaps "Mene Mene Tekel Upharsin"
Why? What is so convincing that God wrote that? At any rate you left out the 10 Commandments.
and a set of tablets that God figured Moshe was to incompetent to handle, but if you are claiming God wrote Genesis 1 & 2 then yes, you are claiming God is a liar or at best, senile.
Not sure what tablets you are referring to, but I do believe that God could have wrote Genesis 1 & 2. Who else was around to see it? God could have told Adam, however, and he could have written them on tablets, which Moses later obtained possesson of and put into the Pentateuch. There is nothing in them that implies God was senile and certainly neither is it anything that implies He was lying.
The facts are, what is written in the story found from Genesis 1 through the first half of Genesis 2:4 flat contradicts what is found beginning at the second half of Genesis 2:4.
No, as stated earlier, that is not a fact. Your interpretation does not define facts.
Well, not too sure how you get that since I know that neither God or Moshe (if Moshe even existed) wrote either story
How do you know that? Were you around when these stories were written?
The rest of your post is simply denial of the facts.
Once again, I'm not denying any facts. Only your interpretation of what the facts are.
Don't worry though, there are people who actually do read the Bible and they can check to see if what I posted is true or not.
Yes, and I'm one of them. It would be nice if people like you wouldn't leave your basic comprehension skills at the door when it comes to the Bible.
The fact is that what follows Genesis 2:4 is NOT simply an expansion on what happened on day six, it includes pretty much the same things being created as in the younger tale ('cept fishies) found in Genesis 1, but the order, the methods and even the description of the god are quite different.
It does not give anything in any chronological order as Genesis one, but merely gives an overview of those events. Anyone who is not biased against the Bible can see this. It goes on to give a more detailed account of Day six of creation, which anyone without blinders can see. It is you who seems to be denying the facts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by jar, posted 12-03-2007 1:36 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by jar, posted 12-03-2007 3:20 PM Creationist has replied

Creationist
Member (Idle past 5675 days)
Posts: 95
Joined: 10-19-2007


Message 56 of 308 (438250)
12-03-2007 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by ringo
12-03-2007 2:41 PM


Re: On text
Hmm.... We have a quandary, since you agree with me but I disagree with you.
Yes we do have one, since you seem to be saying two different things. Is interpretation coming into play here any at all?
You said that "to say Genesis 1 and 2 are the same story is a bad interpetation." I said that Genesis 1 and 2 are NOT two different creation accounts. So bad interpretation has brought you to the assumption that I meant they are the same story. Yet, what I mean is that Genesis 2 is a not a creation story at all. It is merely a more detailed account of day six while giving an overall view of what was just related in Genesis 1.
Have you changed your mind?
Not at all, have you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by ringo, posted 12-03-2007 2:41 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by ringo, posted 12-03-2007 3:15 PM Creationist has replied

Creationist
Member (Idle past 5675 days)
Posts: 95
Joined: 10-19-2007


Message 59 of 308 (438262)
12-03-2007 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by ringo
12-03-2007 3:15 PM


If one is a creation story and one isn't, how can they be the same story?
I agree.
The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich covers many of the same events as The Winds of War but they're completely different stories written by different authors for different reasons. The first two chapters of Genesis are similar - two different stories by different
authors with different purposes, which happen to cover some of the same events.
OK.
What puzzles me is why anybody would even try to conflate them. What's the point?
Why anyone would try to say they are the same story is beyond me. Well not really? It is just an attempt by skeptics to throw doubt on the Bible. No amount of explanation will change their minds.
Yes. You seemed to be under the impression that different interpretations of the same message are permissible.
How can I be doing that, since I am saying they are not the same message?
I was pointing out that some interpretations are simply wrong.
Which is what I have been saying all along.
Your interpretation is simply wrong.
Or yours, whatever it is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by ringo, posted 12-03-2007 3:15 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by ringo, posted 12-03-2007 3:51 PM Creationist has replied

Creationist
Member (Idle past 5675 days)
Posts: 95
Joined: 10-19-2007


Message 60 of 308 (438265)
12-03-2007 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by jar
12-03-2007 3:20 PM


Re: On text
You are welcome to whatever fantasies you wish to hold.
As, I suppose, are you.
May I suggest that you present your best case in support of your position.
I have already explained my position and given good explanations to show that there are no contradictions. You, on the other hand, continue to espouse that there are contradiction without any real proof of any. Yelling louder does not make you more right.
My position has been pretty completely outlined in the thread for all to see.
I have not looked at all of your threads, only the ones that have been in response to mine, but I'm pretty sure I already know what they contain. I responed as to why each point was not really a contradiction. I gave reasonable explanations to show that each contradiction need not be considered one. You reject them out of hand, which tells me no amount of explanation would be enough for you.
I have pointed to the contradictions, and also offered possible explanations for the reasoning the redactors might have used for treating the materials as they did.
What are the names of these so called redactors?
I am not interpreting what is written, just documenting it.
In order to discern if there is a contradiction requires a certain amount of interpretation. Documenting what you think is a contradiction requires interpretation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by jar, posted 12-03-2007 3:20 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 12-03-2007 3:57 PM Creationist has replied

Creationist
Member (Idle past 5675 days)
Posts: 95
Joined: 10-19-2007


Message 73 of 308 (438374)
12-04-2007 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by ringo
12-03-2007 3:51 PM


You're jumping to conclusions.
Am I? We'll see.
Most people in this thread are trying to point out that there are contradictions between the two accounts and that that's okay.
Maybe most are, but some are not. Anyway, I challenge that line of thinking. If the Bible is the Word of God, and God is infallible, than any contradiction or error would make it worthless. What is the point in worshipping someone who makes mistakes. Might as well take care of yourself. And I believe that is what some on here want. If they can prove the Bible has errors or contradictions then they might as well live their lives like they want. And not be held accountable for it.
In fact, it's the literalists trying to cover up the contradictions who devalue the Bible. If you truly value the Bible, take it as it is. Don't idolize it as something perfect that it isn't.
How can you devalue the Bible by standing up for it? As stated earlier, either the Bible is the Word of God or it is not. By explaning away so called contradictions, I am not covering them up. You are the one who has to prove a contradition not me. As for taking it for what it is, I do. It is the Word of an infallible God. Since it comes from an infallible God, then it is perfect. I cherish it, but I don't idolize it.
Don't start with the assumption that there must not be any contradictions.
Everybody starts with assumptions. Assumptions based on what their world view is. As stated, I believe the Bible is the Word of an infallible God, therefore I assume it has no errors. You, on the other hand, do not believe that it is, therefore you assume it must have errors in it. Both of us start out with assumptions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by ringo, posted 12-03-2007 3:51 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by JB1740, posted 12-04-2007 11:02 AM Creationist has replied
 Message 75 by ringo, posted 12-04-2007 11:19 AM Creationist has not replied
 Message 80 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-04-2007 1:18 PM Creationist has replied

Creationist
Member (Idle past 5675 days)
Posts: 95
Joined: 10-19-2007


Message 76 of 308 (438400)
12-04-2007 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by jar
12-03-2007 3:57 PM


Re: On text
No one knows anymore than we know the authors of many Biblical books or ANY of the various editors or members of the committees that determined the Canons
Not entirely true. The Bible tells us who the authors are in the Books, except for a few. We have names and in many instances the life story of the author. The ones that don't clearly tell us, are usually known by tradition handed down through the centuries. You, on the other hand, have nothing but conjecture and speculation. Yet, somehow, your information is supposed to be more reliable than mine.
It is likely that most of the redaction of the Torah happened after the return from the exile and possibly either by or under the direction of Ezra.
Likely? What evidence? More speculation? Conjecture?
Sorry but that is nonsense. All that is needed is to point to the text itself.
So I don't need to interpret this sentence?
Well, what I provided were links to posts in this thread, so actually would be on topic for this thread.
Ok, I will make an effor to go and read your links. I will see the so called evidence you have.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 12-03-2007 3:57 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 12-04-2007 1:24 PM Creationist has replied
 Message 89 by bluescat48, posted 12-04-2007 4:22 PM Creationist has not replied
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