Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,905 Year: 4,162/9,624 Month: 1,033/974 Week: 360/286 Day: 3/13 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Contradictions between Genesis 1-2
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2794 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 231 of 308 (440945)
12-15-2007 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by purpledawn
12-08-2007 6:31 PM


Re: Validated
purpledawn writes:
You would need to show that what took place in the Adam and Eve story between the creation of man and woman took more than one day. Does the story really validate that idea?
Yes Dawn, I believe it does.
We may not be able to prove that "the day" of creation (2:4) was actually more than one day but we can make a case for its likelihood. By the same token: we may not be able to prove that more than one day elapsed between the creation of Adam and the creation of Eve, but we can make a case for its likelihood.
One argument in favor of the idea that the story of the creation of Adam and Eve covers more than one day is the argument mentioned above: that "the day" in which the LORD God created, should be understood as a figure of speech and that the events which follow likely required more than a single day.
Why should it be important that "the day" (2:4), be more than one day in the context of verse four and less than one day in the context of verses 5-23?
In the chapter two narrative, sandwiched between the creations of Adam and Eve, is a retelling, however scrambled, of events identified with days 3 and 5 and 6 (chapter one). The notion that chapter two is an expansion of what happened on day six, places an artificial time constraint on the events delineated in chapter two, forcing them to transpire in the space of a day which we have already agreed is not a "day."
Can one have it both ways? Have "the day" of chapter two to be the week of chapter one, AND AT THE SAME TIME have virtually all of chapter two crammed into Day 6? First "the day" wants to be a week and then the week wants to be a day. Is that insane? But I digress.
After Clay Man becomes animated, Yahweh’s work continues:
  • Planting the garden of Eden.
  • Placing the man in the garden.
  • Creating fruit trees including the forbidden one.
  • Bringing water to the garden.
  • Talking about other countries and the cool thing found there.
  • Putting the man to work the garden.
  • Teaching the man the rules.
  • Threatening the man with death.
  • Noticing that the man needs a mate.
  • Vowing to make the man a mate.
  • Creating animals and birds for the man to meet.
  • Learning that there was no mate for him among them.
Then, finally, just when you thought He didn’t have a clue; voila!
  • He pulls a woman out of Adam’s guts.
The author never calls this world “good” because it isn't; it's chock full of problems.
  • It hasn’t rained.
  • No crops have been planted.
  • There’s no one to work the soil.
  • The ground is too dry to support crops and,
  • The man can’t find a mate.
It seems to me that in order for the two versions to be coherent, the second should do no violence to the first.
  • Should not reverse the order of events (man last versus man first).
  • Should not alter the method of creation (fiat versus sculpture)
  • Should not reverse the character of deity (competent versus bungling).
  • Should not change the character of the product (good versus problematic).
I'd like to discuss why it is that the first humans have to work a plantation in the middle of a desert when they are supposed to be living in a sub-tropical paradise on a brand new world covered with every kind edible vegetation.
Please notice that Adam was not taken from the good soil of the garden but rather from the ground outside the garden, which is where he ended up when the LORD tossed him on his ear. 3:23

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by purpledawn, posted 12-08-2007 6:31 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by purpledawn, posted 12-15-2007 4:58 PM doctrbill has replied

doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2794 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 237 of 308 (440983)
12-15-2007 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by purpledawn
12-15-2007 4:58 PM


Re: Validated
Thank you for responding, although I had wished for a bit more engagement.
Seems to me the latter version presents an aloof, non judgmental deity whereas the prior paints him in clearly human terms, giving rise to the darker side of Christian dogma: original sin, blood sacrifice, eternal damnation .
Do you not see these stories conflicting in terms of their theology?
Are you not aware of the hostility inspired in believers by the mere mention of two different stories here?
Whenever I make make the slightest suggestion that these two are different stories, I must face the knee jerk, quick draw, bloody sword reaction of any and every Fundie I know, including my immediate family. I am irrevocably classed with Satan's minions because I happen to know the Bible better than they; and am at the very least pitied for the horrible fate which awaits me when Jesus comes out of the sky to smack me down;
Me and everyone else who dares to disagree with King James.

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by purpledawn, posted 12-15-2007 4:58 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by purpledawn, posted 12-16-2007 7:42 AM doctrbill has replied

doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2794 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 246 of 308 (441074)
12-16-2007 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by purpledawn
12-16-2007 7:42 AM


Re: Validated
purpledawn writes:
The A&E Story starts with "God made the earth and the heavens:, whereas, the Priestly story starts with "God created the heavens and the earth".
I hadn't noticed that before, but it would be consistent with a Sumerian legend in which the sky, in response to strong puffing by the air-god Lil, is raised up from off the earth. As I recall, it is the earliest myth uncovered to date.
The Christian religion should start with Jesus as Judaism started with Abraham.
Looks good on paper but you can't really understand Jesus without Abraham.
On the other hand: The Christian religion should follow the religion of Christ. As one Unitarian Universalist author wrote regarding UU theology/philosophy:
"We are more interested in the religion of Jesus than we are in a religion about Jesus."
I personally don't see a theological difference. One story is concerned with the creation of the world and the other deals with how mankind came to be the way he is.
Exactly. It is "the fall" of man which requires the redemption value of "the blood of Christ." Or, as one of my Sabbath School teachers put it:
"God requires a blood sacrifice. Somebody has to die."
(Preferrably non-Christian )

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by purpledawn, posted 12-16-2007 7:42 AM purpledawn has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by jar, posted 12-16-2007 11:20 AM doctrbill has replied

doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2794 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 259 of 308 (441148)
12-16-2007 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by jar
12-16-2007 11:20 AM


Re: Validated
doctrbill writes:
"God requires a blood sacrifice. Somebody has to die."
(Preferrably non-Christian )
jar writes:
Is that why God chose a nice Jewish boy and not some Goy?
I'm sure.
quote:
"Salvation is of the Jews." Jesus Christ John 4:22

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by jar, posted 12-16-2007 11:20 AM jar has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024