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Author
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Topic: Contradictions between Genesis 1-2
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Re: The topic is on the two Genesis stories.
quote:
The point of the thread seems to be the blatherings of a kid convinced of his own supposed brilliance. It seems like a slandering ceremony of God rather than an honest inquiry. The OP does not ask any questions, which is the surest sign that he isn't interested in merely having an open-session dialogue. He is making bold accusations about things that Sunday School teachers deal with on a routine basis, and then in self-congratulatory fashion, pats himself on the back for a job well done.
Actually various Bible scholars have been working on these issues for centuries. My information is based on the book by Biblical scholar, Richard Elliott Friedman, called "Who Wrote the Bible?" A writer's style of writing is usually consistent within a written work. The creation stories are not consistent for one writer and when separated each story can stand alone. The difference in the way the authors refer to God is very distinctive and sparked further investigation. Scholars have been able to extract the various styles within Genesis and still have stories that can stand on their own. The Flood story is a good example. This is from the Complete Jewish Bible
Adonai=YHWH - J Writer Genesis 6 5 ADONAI saw that the people on earth were very wicked, that all the imaginings of their hearts were always of evil only. 6 ADONAI regretted that he had made humankind on the earth; it grieved his heart. 7 ADONAI said, "I will wipe out humankind, whom I have created, from the whole earth; and not only human beings, but animals, creeping things and birds in the air; for I regret that I ever made them." 8 But Noach found grace in the sight of ADONAI. Genesis 7 1 ADONAI said to Noach, "Come into the ark, you and all your household; for I have seen that you alone in this generation are righteous before me. 2 Of every clean animal you are to take seven couples, and of the animals that are not clean, one couple; 3 also of the birds in the air take seven couples - in order to preserve their species throughout the earth. 4 For in seven more days I will cause it to rain on the earth forty days and forty nights; I will wipe out every living thing that I have made from the face of the earth." 5 Noach did all that ADONAI ordered him to do. 7 Noach went into the ark with his sons, his wife and his sons' wives, because of the floodwaters. 10 After seven days the water flooded the earth. 12 It rained on the earth forty days and forty nights. and ADONAI shut him inside. 17 The flood was forty days on the earth; the water grew higher and floated the ark, so that it was lifted up off the earth. 18 The water overflowed the earth and grew deeper, until the ark floated on the surface of the water. 19 The water overpowered the earth mightily; all the high mountains under the entire sky were covered; 20 the water covered the mountains by more than twenty-two-and-a-half feet. 22 everything in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life; whatever was on dry land died. 23 He wiped out every living thing on the surface of the ground - not only human beings, but livestock, creeping animals and birds in the air. They were wiped out from the earth; only Noach was left, along with those who were with him in the ark. Genesis 8 6 After forty days Noach opened the window of the ark which he had built; 8 Then he sent out a dove, to see if the water had gone from the surface of the ground. 9 But the dove found no place for her feet to rest, so she returned to him in the ark, because the water still covered the whole earth. He put out his hand, took her and brought her in to him in the ark. 10 He waited another seven days and again sent the dove out from the ark. 11 The dove came in to him in the evening, and there in her mouth was a freshly plucked olive leaf, so Noach knew that the water had cleared from the earth. 12 He waited yet another seven days and sent out the dove, and she didn't return to him any more. 20 Noach built an altar to ADONAI. Then he took from every clean animal and every clean bird, and he offered burnt offerings on the altar. 21 ADONAI smelled the sweet aroma, and ADONAI said in his heart, "I will never again curse the ground because of humankind, since the imaginings of a person's heart are evil from his youth; nor will I ever again destroy all living things, as I have done. 22 So long as the earth exists, sowing time and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, and day and night will not cease." God- Priestly Writer Genesis 6 9 Here is the history of Noach. In his generation, Noach was a man righteous and wholehearted; Noach walked with God. 10 Noach fathered three sons, Shem, Ham and Yefet. 11 The earth was corrupt before God, the earth was filled with violence. 12 God saw the earth, and, yes, it was corrupt; for all living beings had corrupted their ways on the earth. 13 God said to Noach, "The end of all living beings has come before me, for because of them the earth is filled with violence. I will destroy them along with the earth. 14 Make yourself an ark of gofer-wood; you are to make the ark with rooms and cover it with pitch both outside and inside. 15 Here is how you are to build it: the length of the ark is to be 450 feet, its width seventy-five feet and its height forty-five feet. 16 You are to make an opening for daylight in the ark eighteen inches below its roof. Put a door in its side; and build it with lower, second and third decks. 17 "Then I myself will bring the flood of water over the earth to destroy from under heaven every living thing that breathes; everything on earth will be destroyed. 18 But I will establish my covenant with you; you will come into the ark, you, your sons, your wife and your sons' wives with you. 19 "From everything living, from each kind of living being, you are to bring two into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they are to be male and female. 20 Of each kind of bird, each kind of livestock, and each kind of animal creeping on the ground, two are to come to you, so that they can be kept alive. 21 Also take from all the kinds of food that are eaten, and collect it for yourself; it is to be food for you and for them." 22 This is what Noach did; he did all that God ordered him to do. Genesis 7 6 Noach was 600 years old when the water flooded the earth. 8 Of clean animals, of animals that are not clean, of birds, and of everything that creeps on the ground, 9 couples, male and female, went in to Noach in the ark, as God had ordered Noach. 11 On the seventeenth day of the second month of the 600th year of Noach's life all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of the sky were opened. 13 On that same day Noach entered the ark with Shem, Ham and Yefet the sons of Noach, Noach's wife and the three wives of his sons accompanying them; 14 they, and every animal of every species, all the livestock of every species, every animal that creeps on the ground of every species, and every bird of every species - all sorts of winged creatures. 15 They went in to Noach in the ark, couples from every kind of living thing that breathes. 16 Those that entered went in, male and female, from every kind of living being, as God had ordered him; 21 All living beings that moved on the earth perished - birds, livestock, other animals, insects, and every human being, 24 The water held power over the earth for 150 days. Genesis 8 1 God remembered Noach, every living thing and all the livestock with him in the ark; so God caused a wind to pass over the earth, and the water began to go down. 2 Also the fountains of the deep and the windows of the sky were stopped, the rain from the sky was restrained, 3 and the water came back from completely covering the earth. It was after 150 days that the water went down. 4 On the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat. 5 The water kept going down until the tenth month; on the first day of the tenth month the tops of the mountains were seen. 7 and he sent out a raven, which flew back and forth until the water had dried up from the earth. 13 By the first day of the first month of the 601st year the water had dried up from off the earth; so Noach removed the covering of the ark and looked; and, yes, the surface of the ground was dry. 14 It was on the twenty-seventh day of the second month that the earth was dry. 15 God said to Noach, 16 "Go out from the ark, you, your wife, your sons and your son's wives with you. 17 Bring out with you every living thing you have with you - birds, livestock and every animal that creeps on the earth - so that they can swarm on the earth, be fruitful and multiply on the earth." 18 So Noach went out with his sons, his wife and his sons' wives; 19 every animal, every creeping thing and every bird, whatever moves on the earth, according to their families, went out of the ark. This is something that would be difficult to do within a one author writing. I don't feel that either creation story could be split into two complete stories as the flood story was done. This is some of what leads the scholars researching with the Documentary Hypothesis to conclude that the creation stories are separate and by two different authors.
"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 17 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-30-2007 10:52 PM | | Hyroglyphx has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 31 by jar, posted 12-02-2007 10:29 AM | | purpledawn has not replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 151 of 308 (439218)
12-07-2007 7:23 PM
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Reply to: Message 150 by Force
12-07-2007 5:10 PM
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Creation of What?
Creationist writes: One deals with the chronology of creation and other deals with Adam, Eve and their relationship to their surroundings, which I have explained in a previous post. Actually Creationist has a point. If you read each as a separate story as intended the focal point of Genesis 1 is the creation of the planet and the inhabitants. In Genesis 2 the focal point of the story is the creation of Adam and Eve and why humans are no longer in the Garden of Eden. Everything else is just background. It doesn't read as a story trying to lay out the order in which the world was put together. The phrase "In the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens" reads as an equivalent to "once upon a time". If we're going to look at style to say the stories were written by two different authors, we also have to read the whole story and understand the author's point in telling the story.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 150 by Force, posted 12-07-2007 5:10 PM | | Force has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 152 by Force, posted 12-07-2007 7:51 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 156 of 308 (439314)
12-08-2007 8:10 AM
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Reply to: Message 152 by Force
12-07-2007 7:51 PM
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Re: Creation of What?
I'm quite aware of what Creationist is arguing.
quote:
I argue that there is two creation stories in Genesis and the indications of such are included in my OP.
What you provided in the OP were what you considered to be contradictions between two creation stories.
1) Genesis 1:31 because everything God created was complete after 6 days but in Genesis 2:4 LORD God created the heavens and earth in a day. 2) Genesis 1:27 because God created male and female at the same time but according to Genesis 2:5-20 LORD God created male and then created female later(2:20). IMO, to be valid contradictions they would have to be stories addressing the same issue for the same purpose. You didn't show evidence of that. In Message 32, Creationist gave some reasonable answers concerning the creation lineup and your only response in Message 39 was:
I have realized that everything you posted in response to OP1 is an interpretation that is based on sources that contradict each other. So, I am not going to accept your information on this topic as plausible because it has no evidence. While I don't agree with the position that the Adam and Eve story was "written" to expound on the sixth day of creation mentioned in Genesis 1, I could accept that a redactor would include the Adam and Eve story to cover the details of man's creation. My reason is because the Adam and Eve story is considered to have been "written" first and Genesis 1 was a later creation per the documentary hypothesis. My point in Message 151 is that it is a valid point that the Adam and Eve story was not "written" to address the precise creation of the world. If you feel that the main point of the Adam and Eve story was to provide the exact info concerning the creation of the world, then provide the evidence. In Message 126 you stated for the second time:
2:4 indicates that God created the heavens and the earth in A day. Creationist gave a reasonable answer in Message 135:
Creationists writes: No it doesn’t, although Genesis 1:1-5 does. Again, ”day’ can mean a 24 hour day, a specific place in time, or an unspecified amount of time in the Hebrew language. The same can be said about ”day’ in the English language. So how do you determine how to interpret it? From the context. Genesis 2:4 is referring to a place in time, in this instance back when God first created the heavens and earth. Any unbiased person can see this. Again you fluff it off. His first response to you addressed this issue.
The issue is that your claims have no support. I don't see that you've addressed his rebuttals with additional evidence. You just disregarded them. From Message 150 quote:
Creationist writes:
I'll go along with the description of God, which doesn't prove anything. However, your assumption that both chapters are a creation story, is what I object to. One deals with the chronology of creation and other deals with Adam, Eve and their relationship to their surroundings, which I have explained in a previous post.
Incorrect. Adam and Eve's actual relationship to their surroundings does not start untill Genesis chapter 3. However, once again, you have no evidence for your claims.
The Adam and Eve story is just that an entire story. Do you have evidence that the first part of the story is written by a different author than chapter 3? If not, it all goes together. The first portion would not be considered a separate story. Quite frankly, you need to come up with some additional evidence to support your position. I may not agree with everything Creationist has said concerning this topic, but he has made some valid points that should be addressed.
"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 152 by Force, posted 12-07-2007 7:51 PM | | Force has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 157 by ringo, posted 12-08-2007 10:11 AM | | purpledawn has replied | | | Message 158 by Force, posted 12-08-2007 1:27 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 159 of 308 (439408)
12-08-2007 6:20 PM
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Reply to: Message 157 by ringo
12-08-2007 10:11 AM
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Purpose
quote:
As I understand it, the intent of the topic was to suggest that the stories don't have the same author and therefore probably not the same purpose.
The OP doesn't really give a good direction for the discussion and given his response to me, I don't think that is the purpose of this thread.
tthzr3 writes: I do believe that Genesis 1 and 2 are apart of the Torah and claimed to have been written by Moses. The point of this thread was to discuss the contradictions that are contained in that claimed status. Please pay attention.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 157 by ringo, posted 12-08-2007 10:11 AM | | ringo has not replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 160 of 308 (439411)
12-08-2007 6:31 PM
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Reply to: Message 158 by Force
12-08-2007 1:27 PM
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Validated
1) Genesis 1:31 because everything God created was complete after 6 days but in Genesis 2:4 LORD God created the heavens and earth in a day. 2) Genesis 1:27 because God created male and female at the same time but according to Genesis 2:5-20 LORD God created male and then created female later(2:20). No you have not validated that 2:4 states that everything was created in one day, nor have you validated that Genesis 1:27 says that God created male and female at the same time. You could say he created them in the same day, but can't really assume that they were made at the same time. You would need to show that what took place in the Adam and Eve story between the creation of man and woman took more than one day. Does the story really validate that idea?
"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 158 by Force, posted 12-08-2007 1:27 PM | | Force has replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Chapters
quote:
Then why call them G1 and G2, if there's not 2 of them. If they were the same there would be only one.
Because those are the chapters that contain the stories. Genesis chapter 1 contains the creation of the world story. Genesis chapter 2 contains the creation of Adam and Eve story. I believe Creationist has made that point before. If you feel that the Adam and Eve story was intended as a creation of the world story, then please show evidence that the main point of the story which covers more than chapter 2 is the creation of the world. The beginning of the Adam and Eve story is just giving us an idea of when the story took place in time. In the beginning, Once upon a time, etc. Even stories containing facts can be creative.  As I pointed out before, each group has their own lingo for the way they use words in relation to their job, religion, hobby, etc. Reading the Bible literally is one of those areas. Message 134 Basically, the idea of taking the Bible literally is to read and understand the Bible in the normal, historical and grammatical context in which it was written. What do you consider literal to mean in relation to the Bible?
"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 196 of 308 (440396)
12-12-2007 9:22 PM
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Reply to: Message 195 by Force
12-12-2007 6:56 PM
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quote:
Genesis chapters 1 and 2 can only support each other if the "order of creation" in both chapters were the same.
Says who? What evidence do you have that that is true? You keep saying how things must be. What is your evidence that they must be that way? How one chooses to tell a story is up to the individual, even God. If God chose to give the exact order in Genesis 1 and then decided to tell the creation of man a little more creatively, he has that choice, just as we do. You're saying that if one author wrote the whole thing, then lists and concepts must be exactly the same. Why? You think a God who can create all this beauty isn't creative? He can't tell a story to entertain or teach? He must say things the exact same way each time? You really haven't given any evidence to show why these stories must be exactly the same if they were written by one author or inspired by God.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 195 by Force, posted 12-12-2007 6:56 PM | | Force has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 197 by Force, posted 12-12-2007 9:25 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 198 of 308 (440440)
12-13-2007 6:37 AM
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Reply to: Message 197 by Force
12-12-2007 9:25 PM
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Got the Point
quote:
You're missing the point. The point I was making is that g1 and g2 contradict each other and in order for them to support each other, not contradict each other, the order needs to be the same. Hence: no contradiction.
I'm not missing the point, you're avoiding the necessary point. How one writes a technical manual is going to be different than how one writes a piece to generally explain the same information to a group of children or general populace. If one chooses to entertain with the written piece so that the most important points are remembered, that will also be very different from a technical manual. Precision is not the key in a creative story. What I have asked of you and what you have not done, is show evidence of why these two stories must be exactly the same, when they are dealing with different subjects. Why must the order be exactly the same to support each other? You are the one saying that the lists must be exactly the same. Why? For what purpose are you comparing them? Contradiction
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 197 by Force, posted 12-12-2007 9:25 PM | | Force has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 201 by Force, posted 12-13-2007 4:03 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 203 of 308 (440551)
12-13-2007 4:36 PM
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Reply to: Message 201 by Force
12-13-2007 4:03 PM
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Re: Got the Point
This has nothing to do with interpretation. Straight reading. You are the one saying that the lists must be exactly the same to support each other. Why must they be exactly the same? At some point you need to show support for why these verses are considered to be in contradiction of each other. Continuing to tell the opposition that they have no support when you yourself have not actually given any support for why the verses are considered to be contradictions other than you say so is not moving the discussion forward. The individual verses themselves are not support. To deem them contractions there has to be a purpose in comparing the chapters. If I understand what you have said, you don't feel that the A&E story is an expansion of day six, because the lists are not exactly the same. So show evidence that supports the reasoning that the list must be exactly the same for Chapter two to be an account of day six.
"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 201 by Force, posted 12-13-2007 4:03 PM | | Force has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 204 by Force, posted 12-13-2007 4:39 PM | | purpledawn has not replied | | | Message 205 by ringo, posted 12-13-2007 6:10 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 208 of 308 (440687)
12-14-2007 7:01 AM
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Reply to: Message 205 by ringo
12-13-2007 6:10 PM
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Straight Reading
tthzr3 didn't really want to discuss anything. It appears he just wanted a list of contradictions, which he could have gotten on the internet. Both stories say that God created man, woman, plants, and animals. The final information received is the same. In straight reading, one doesn't pull out verses to compare. One reads the whole story. The "contradictions" in the creation story are not what gave birth to the documentary hypothesis. It was the doublets and the name of God used. The purpose in looking at those differences led them to discover that these were separate works that someone had cut up and combined into one. So my question to tthzr3 was that he provide evidence or support for why the lists must be exactly the same. What evidence is there that the stories are there to support each other? What is the purpose for pulling the verses out of each story and comparing them? IOW, he needs to do a little more work than just flop out some verses and say they contradict each other. There should be a purpose in comparing them. Technical writing is boring to read (for most people). Creative writing is fun to read and easy to remember. The second story probably came about orally first and I'm sure it changed many times in the presentation. At one point the order could have been the same, who knows. If the purpose of the story is different, why do the lists have to be exactly the same?
"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 205 by ringo, posted 12-13-2007 6:10 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 209 by ringo, posted 12-14-2007 12:25 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 210 of 308 (440770)
12-14-2007 1:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 209 by ringo
12-14-2007 12:25 PM
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Re: Straight Reading
Message 197 tthzr3 writes: You're missing the point. The point I was making is that g1 and g2 contradict each other and in order for them to support each other, not contradict each other, the order needs to be the same. Hence: no contradiction. He needs to support why the order needs to be the same. What evidence does he have that the stories are supposed to support each other and why the order need to be the same in order to do that.
Message 195 tthzr3 writes: My OP has not yet been refuted; and believe me I would love it to be refuted because I do want to believe in the Bible. This is a science thread and he's supposed provide support for his position, if he even has one. Can you tell me what his support is for his statements? Unfortunately this thread really has no direction. The originator doesn't even know where he's going.
"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 209 by ringo, posted 12-14-2007 12:25 PM | | ringo has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 211 by Force, posted 12-14-2007 4:04 PM | | purpledawn has replied | | | Message 219 by Force, posted 12-15-2007 2:18 AM | | purpledawn has not replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 228 of 308 (440914)
12-15-2007 8:51 AM
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Reply to: Message 211 by Force
12-14-2007 4:04 PM
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Re: Straight Reading
I can't respond concerning an OP other than the one presented for this thread in Message 1.
quote:
You're taking the word "support" entirely out of the context. The context of the word "support" above was reletive to the contradictions in Genesis 1-2.
Which doesn't tell me how I'm viewing "support" incorrectly. We were talking about the list.
quote:
I can understand your confusion but it is not the topic to discuss why there is contradictions in Genesis 1-2 but only to learn about the contradictions in Genesis 1-2. However, I decided that I will oblige your request, above, below.
I'm not asking you why there is a contradiction, I asked you to give evidence that supports why you feel there is a contradiction between the two stories. IOW, support your claim that the list in the stories must be exactly the same or else they are contradictions. Now that I've seen your explanation, I can see why this thread has no focus.
quote:
I do find it important to expect the stories in the Bible, especially the Torah, to read with a sense of accountability due to the fact that the "inspiration to write them" came directly from God. I mean, inspiration, to mean that, the men who wrote the stories of the Bible, were not mere men but ofcourse prophets and desciples of the most high God. We must also consider that these knowledgeable prophets and desciples of God new the law? If you consider how well versed these prophets/desciples of God were in the way of God, ofcourse, they were aware of the 9th commandment. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. per Exodus 20:16
So you are not taking the stories at face value, but have imposed your own criteria that they must meet. Neither story is bearing witness to anything, since the authors weren't present at creation. Not even Moses claims to be present at creation. Why do you not allow God to inspire an entertaining and creative story?
quote:
So, since the Prophets/Deciples of God are the authors of Biblical scripture and are considered the "witnesses of God" they must not bear false witness against God? I don't think so, and as such, we must consider that due to the fact that Genesis 1-2 contradict each other in several verses, to mean, that they don't support each other.
Witnessing God's power and writing an inspired story are two very different things. I don't think anyone has denied differences in the stories, but are they truly contradictions? Are the stories really contrary to each other? From Message 1 quote:
3) The overall order of creation in Genesis 1:1-31, 2:1-3 is different than in Genesis 2:4-25.
Both stories say that God created man, woman, plants, and animals. The final information received is the same. Why must the order be exactly the same, since the stories have different purposes?
quote:
4) Genesis 1:1-31, 2:1-3 each thing created was considered good but in Genesis 2:5-20 it seems creation was a process of trial and error.
One story presents a finished product, the other adds character to the process. Again different purposes, but does that really make the stories contrary to each other?
quote:
5) Genesis 1:26 because there seems to be more than God creating but in Genesis 2:4-25 there is only LORD God creating.
Again different perspective on the story. Gen 1 gives the bigger picture, Gen 2 deals with Adam and Eve. They only deal with God. Gen 1 doesn't reveal that "the others" interacted with mankind during creation.
quote:
6) Genesis 1:29 because all plants are available for eating but in Genesis 2:16-17 some plants are off limits to eat.
The plants that were off limit were in the Garden of Eden. Gen 1 doesn't address the garden. Once man got thrown out of the garden there weren't any limits on the plants he could eat. Again, Gen 1 gave the end product.
quote:
7) Genesis 1:28 because humans subdue the earth but in Genesis 2:15 humans serve the earth.
You do realize that cultivating land is subduing it. The "dress it and to keep it" part deals with the Garden of Eden. Once man was expelled, he had to subdue the land to survive.
Gen 3:23
Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. Easily missed when one doesn't take into account the whole story.
quote:
8) Genesis 1:21-22 because the purpose for animals is not related to humans but in Genesis 2:18-19 the purpose for animals is related to humans.
The purpose of animals is not stated in Gen 1. How can there be a contradiction from lack of statement. Gen 1 did not address why God created the animals. Again, we're getting the end product, not necessarily a detailed explanation. By saying end product and detailed explanation, I'm not saying that the Adam and Eve story is a detailed account of any day in Gen 1. I'm pointing out a difference in the writing styles. Overall the complete stories are not contrary to each other. There are differences in the stories. These differences lead us to investigate and better understand the origins of the stories. Each story has its own purpose, whether one feels it was written by one author, by Moses, or by several authors.
"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 211 by Force, posted 12-14-2007 4:04 PM | | Force has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 229 by ringo, posted 12-15-2007 11:01 AM | | purpledawn has replied | | | Message 230 by Force, posted 12-15-2007 2:37 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 232 of 308 (440946)
12-15-2007 3:49 PM
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Reply to: Message 230 by Force
12-15-2007 2:37 PM
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Personal Opinion
quote:
I have supplied the evidence for that but however you have not refuted it with any countering evidence except a personal opinion.
No you have provided your own conclusions based on your own opinion. Since no one alive today was there at the writing, any thoughts concerning the issue are going to be personal opinion.
"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 230 by Force, posted 12-15-2007 2:37 PM | | Force has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 234 by Force, posted 12-15-2007 4:24 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 233 of 308 (440952)
12-15-2007 4:22 PM
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Reply to: Message 229 by ringo
12-15-2007 11:01 AM
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Re: Straight Reading
quote:
I'll remind you again that "contradiction" is the word insisted on by Admin, not tthzr3.
But tthzr3 is using it beyond the OP in his arguments. I can only respond to what he is saying, not what would be saying if Admin hadn't asked him to use a different word.
quote:
A better question would be: Why would the orders be different? How is a different order necessary to reflect the different purposes?
The order difference is not necessary to the purpose, the purpose allows the difference. Creative license so to speak if one is going to consider them written by the same person. One story concerns creation of the world, the other concerns mankind. If you're comparing them as written by two different authors. One is an ancient tribal story and one is written centuries later by a priest. The priestly order may be more of an update in how they view the universe at the time and not necessarily a contradiction.
quote:
PD writes: One story presents a finished product, the other adds character to the process.
Where's your support for that conclusion?
Finished product means the minimum necessary and adding character means more details included. It is an attempt to get people to read the Bible the same way we do anything else and not put unreasonable expectations on the writings. My reasoning is based on the documentary hypothesis and Richard Elliott Friedman's book "Who Wrote the Bible?" and looking at the style of the stories in relation to what was stated in #4 of the OP.
tthzr3 writes: 4) Genesis 1:1-31, 2:1-3 each thing created was considered good but in Genesis 2:5-20 it seems creation was a process of trial and error. Telling people I put quilling on a gourd and saw that it was good, does not contradict any earlier or later statements where I elaborate on the trial and errors I went through to get to the finished product. IOW, the lack of mentioning trials and errors, doesn't mean the stories contradict each other. For all we know the priestly writer could have had space limitations. 
"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 229 by ringo, posted 12-15-2007 11:01 AM | | ringo has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 235 by Force, posted 12-15-2007 4:25 PM | | purpledawn has not replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Re: Validated
I was really trying to get tthzr3 to provide reasoning for his statements. He keeps claiming he has validated, but he hasn't really said anything. Since the Adam and Eve story probably came first, it wouldn't be elaborating on anything in Gen 1. Needless to say that I agree that the Adam and Eve story is not an elaboration of day six in Gen 1. The priestly writing probably reflects the change in how they viewed the world at the time it was written.
quote:
It seems to me that in order for the two versions to be coherent, the second should do no violence to the first.
The first actually being the Adam and Eve story. The big thing is that the Adam and Eve story has a talking snake in it. It is a creative story a foundational myth. A local news station followed a little girl around all day long and video taped her day. They made two shorts from it. Depending on how they edited the video, the girl looked like a very good little girl or a very bad little girl. We could say that one video contradicted the other, but in actuality both showed what the girl did that day. Writer's include the information necessary to make their point. Unfortunately we don't truly know the authors' purpose or their audience. We can only guess what an author had in his mind over 2500 years ago.
"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 231 by doctrbill, posted 12-15-2007 3:48 PM | | doctrbill has replied |
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