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Author Topic:   Religion is Evil!
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 171 of 228 (648646)
01-17-2012 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by crashfrog
01-16-2012 8:38 PM


If Iran chooses to flaunt non-compliance with the NPT, I don't see what option exists beyond these three: ignore them and allow them to weaponize, work covertly to derail their program (StuxNet, assassinations), or invade.
Or isolate them and pursue other overt options short of invading. How about building visible deterrent and anti-ballistic missile systems targeting Iran's offensive capabilities?
What if Iran simply backs out of the treaty? That is after all what the US has done on a few occasions when the government has found treaty provisions inconvenient to follow?
How did we respond when Pakistan, India, and North Korea obtained nuclear weapons? What action would other countries be justified in taking in response to the execution of Humberto Leal Garcia in violation of the Vienna Convention?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by crashfrog, posted 01-16-2012 8:38 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by crashfrog, posted 01-17-2012 3:57 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 188 of 228 (648714)
01-17-2012 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by crashfrog
01-17-2012 3:57 PM


There are no "anti-ballistic missile systems", none that work anyway, and even if there were why would it matter if they were deployed around Iran?
Let's not confuse every defensive system with the absurdity that is SDI. There are systems that have some effectiveness against crude technology weapon. Nothing 100% effective, true, but such systems can work well enough to make a first strike a relatively poor option, for countries with only a few missiles.
Iran doesn't have a ballistic missile program, they have a nuclear weapons program. You understand that those are two different things, right?
Why the condescension? Do I have a reputation for idiocy that arrived in this discussion before I did?
Countries who are developing nuclear weapons have generally also developed missile capability at the same time. We should expect Iran to do the same thing.
What, then, is a justifiable response in your opinion?
More name calling? Labeling them as the 'Nookler' axis of evil? Sanctions?
I'm suggesting that when countries develop offensive weapons, be they pointy sticks, or nuclear weapons, that other countries don't suddenly acquire a moral imperative to invade them.
I suspect Iran is looking at the examples of Pakistan, India, and North Korea and thinking that the best way to get people off your back about your nuclear weapons is to have some.
It appears to me that Iran is correct about that. They might well take the NK approach of stalling and pretending to bargain for as much as they can get, and then deploying weapons anyway.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by crashfrog, posted 01-17-2012 3:57 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by crashfrog, posted 01-18-2012 8:48 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 191 of 228 (648756)
01-18-2012 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by crashfrog
01-18-2012 8:48 AM


You're still stuck on this "missile" paradigm when it's far more likely that Iran - eventually - would attempt to deploy their nuclear weapon as a vehicle bomb or even a "suitcase nuke".
No I'm not stuck on that point. But you did ask about it in your response which implied that I was an idiot for even mentioning anti-missiles. I can scarcely be blamed for responding further.
For the record, yes, I do know the difference between a nuke and a missile.
We're already doing sanctions; we probably doing the most sanctions we can do without causing Iran to close the Strait of Hormuz.
Whereas killing Iran's nuclear scientists is unlikely to have such a result? I'm not convinced.
I'm far from convinced that sanctions are a more humane alternative than assassinating a small number of nuclear scientists.
That's fine. I agree with you on that point. But reasonable people might disagree that such an explanation is enough to justify an assassination policy.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : Removed snippiness. Crashfrog has already apologized.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by crashfrog, posted 01-18-2012 8:48 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 192 of 228 (648757)
01-18-2012 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by crashfrog
01-18-2012 8:38 AM


Re: I read the news today, oh boy
don't think it's always a stance of moral cowardice to assert that the protections of the US constitution apply only to Americans; in most cases that's a recognition that other countries actually do have the equivalent sovereignty to govern their affairs as they see fit - not necessarily as we see fit.
Except that recognizing the sovereignty of countries on this issue isn't really our policy. We do expect our government t mouth off about human rights issues, and intellectual property laws, and due process in other countries. Sometimes we even invade countries in part because of how they treat their own people.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by crashfrog, posted 01-18-2012 8:38 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by crashfrog, posted 01-18-2012 10:31 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 199 of 228 (648798)
01-18-2012 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by crashfrog
01-18-2012 10:31 AM


Re: I read the news today, oh boy
Yes, but we've yet to invade France (where they need no warrant to search your home) for violations of the Fourth Amendment,
No, but we are contemplating taking action against Canada in response to their not including sufficiently rigorous anti-circumvention provisions in their copyright statutes.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by crashfrog, posted 01-18-2012 10:31 AM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by GDR, posted 01-18-2012 4:13 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
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