Religion is Evil!

Just a thought on all of this. I don't think that there are any easy answers and we live in a very fragile world politically.I would like to try and look at this from what I contend is a Christian perspective. Ultimately the war is against evil. Yes, we can have short term victories by dropping bombs on people, or assassinating people, but in the end the only way to secure victory, (other than genocide I suppose ) is to win over the hearts of the enemy.I think a modern example of that is after WW I we had the punitive "Treaty of Versailles" which ultimately brought us WW II. After WW II the allies, and particularly the US to their everlasting credit, helped rebuild the countries of their former enemies and established trade with them. Today we are all the best of friends.I know things are never simple, but there are long term objectives as well as short term ones. Possibly, although I have my doubts, the assassination of this nuclear scientist will turn out to be a good decision, but if they are going down that road there had better be a plan to build a long term relationship with the people of Iran, and we should be prepared for the fall out of the decision in the short term.I know this is simplistic but maybe if instead of dropping bombs on places like Iraq and Afghanistan we could set up a satellite network and blanket the country with computers, and if food or clothing is an issue then drop some of that as well. In the end we are all products our cultures and we need to establish trust between the various world cultures. We keep reacting to the actions of a few whether it be those responsible for 9/11 or whether it be the leadership in Iran. IMHO we have to find ways of reaching out to the people of other cultures with compassion instead of force. We have to go around the leaders of these countries who enjoy their positions of privilege and power, and we have to accept the fact that this will not be resolved in our life times nor in the life time of our kids but we have to make a start somewhere.It does seem to me that if our war is against evil and we use evil means to fight it then in the end evil is going to come out ahead. A simple case in point. We rightly abhor seeing our own people tortured but we seem to be able to justify it for ourselves on the grounds of gaining intelligence and saving the lives of our own citizens.Recently the US arms manufacturers sold a pile of F-15’s to the Saudis. At some point I think it has to become less about making money at the cost of everything else. Remember the US support for the regime of Saddam Hussein when it suited them. The west armed the Taliban in their war with the Russians. This idea of arming the world and then correcting the mistake with more military action can only end badly.Now maybe George Bush is right when he claims that torture saved lives but it seems to me that although he may be correct in the short term I question whether it will on the longer term. If we in the west justify torture, then the leaders of enemy countries can easily make the case that their side is the righteous one, and turn the hearts of the people of those countries against us. As I said, quoting my favourite theologian N T Wright, if you fight evil with evil then evil is bound to win.I don’t have any conclusive answers but I think that we are continually trying to find short term military solutions to what are really long term ideological problems. This may be partly blamed on having politicians constantly trying to solve issues during their term in office, or prior to the next election. In the end however, it all seems to come down to pride and power and none of us seem immune to that. Edited by GDR, : typo

I too am ex-military back when the C-130 was a new aircraft type.I think that there is a real desire in the American people to do the right thing. Let's look at Iraq. There was a brutal regime in control that bullied their own people into submission. There was a real sense of wanting to liberate these oppressed people. (Frankly this was the view I held at the time, but as my understanding of Christianity has grown my understanding of the issues has brought about a change in my views.)The thing is though that the regime has to be replaced with something else that will bring long term stability to the country. We in the west think that democracy is the answer but realistically Iraq is a long way from being able to form a democracy. It is a tribal society where there is considerable distrust between the tribes. Also, I think a basic understanding of human nature will tell us that a political solution imposed by outsiders will not have the support of the population.I contend that as difficult as it may be, if revolution is going to happen it is going to have to come from within. (Hopefully we did the right thing in Libya.) It requires patience and it requires politicians that realize that sometimes the best thing to do is essentially nothing. In the meantime as I suggested we should be reaching out with a hand of friendship through trade and other forms of support. If we are dealing with tyrants in power we have to find ways to work around them, and we have to realize that there are no short term final solutions.If we look at the relationship between the west and the various Asian countries we can see how the bonds between our countries have grown when we reduced the barriers between the countries. There is no reason that over time the same can't be done with Middle Eastern countries, but if we keep seeing them as a monolithic block as represented by some of the leaders, we will have problem.The majority of Iraqis or Iranians are just like us - trying to feed and house their families. Yes, we have our cultural difference and yes I sometimes am shocked by things like so-called honour killings in families. However, as I said earlier if we are going to win people over it can only be done over the long term with love and ideas. Bombs only harden hearts, for both the dropee and the dropper.

Sorting out right and wrong in those circumstances is so incredibly conflicting. I was fortunate in that in my military time I never had to think about it, and besides being 20 something and enamoured by airplanes I didn't think that deeply anyway.

Hmmmm....... isn't that a bit like "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"?

Absolutely. It is in fact pretty much a central part of all major World Religions. Even you atheists seem to buy into it. Maybe we should all agree that this is a universal truth and start insisting that the world run on that basis. At least I can't think of a better place to start.Edited by GDR, : typo

Lots of luck with that. We beat you the first time and we can do it again. Canada won the War of 1812, U.S. historian admits

We can take you at hockey too. We got it covered all ways.

Can't disagree with that but it seems to me that it is such an ancient widely understood principle that it is suggestive that it might be an eternal universal truth, but it is possible that you would see that differently.

Actually if you read what I said I wasn't giving credit to religion. I was implying that there is truth that exists universally whether we exist or not, and that the "Golden Rule" would be an example. (maybe even the only example), of such a truth. As it being universal it would exist exclusive of any religion or world-view if I am correct.I know how hesitant you are to disagree but feel free to do so. Cheers

Well I guess I quoted the version most familiar to me but I meant it in a broader sense. I was simply trying to point out that is is something that the vast majority of people of any religion or any non-religious person could agree on. I wasn't really trying to be subtle. I was just saying that it might be indicative of something beyond ourselves knowing that Straggler would have another explanation. (Actually I really enjoy Straggler's well thought out posts and agree with him much of the time even though we come at things from a different perspective.) It isn't that I want it to be so, it is that I believe it to be so. I could just as easily say that you would want it to be wrong. That could very well be true and it could be that there is nothing but the natural material world. However, even if your statement is 100% correct that doesn't eliminate the possibility that our sense of the golden rule evolved from some greater truth beyond ourselves. We all believe things we can't prove or know. Maybe, but there exists forms of co-operation which might be considered "the golden rule lite" amongst animals. I can't get anything by you - can I.

As I said to hooah that may be completely true but it doesn't eliminate the possibility that there truth, such as the Golden Rule that exists whether we are around to put it into practice.This is very much the same as the discussion on evolution. We can observe how evolution has taken place over time but we can't say whether it was caused by an external intelligence or whether it came from completely natural, non-moral, non-intelligent sources. It is the same in this case.Neither of us can say with certainty that we are right. It is simply what we believe to be true.

That was meant as tongue in cheek humour. I guess it doesn't translate well in print. We both have our preconceived beliefs. Yes there is evidence that we need to work together. So what? That would be true whether a higher power exists or not. There is no evidence that a "higher power" doesn't exist either. I never will be able to prove it, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. You can't prove that a higher power doesn't exist but I don't claim that for evidence that it does. That's obvious but it tells us nothing except to explain how you personally come to your conclusions.

That wasn't actually my point. Personally, I don't think that our biosphere has the appearance of completely natural. non-moral. non-intelligent sources. IMHO it has all the appearances of being the product the product of a moral intelligence. That however is my subjective belief and I was only pointing out that it is reasonable to come to the other conclusion.

I did start the statement with IMHO by the way. However, I can objectively observe that we live in a complex universe, with complex life forms, with sentient beings that are able to make moral decisions. I then subjectively conclude that it is more likely that all of that is the result of a pre-existing moral intelligence than not. You and others subjectively conclude the opposite. If we are limiting ourselves to our finite 4 dimensional existence, it is my opinion that it is highly unlikely that intelligent life of any form would exist. If you are talking about an amoral intelligence then I suppose it would be a hell with everyone looking after their self-interest regardless of its impact on others.This is just an opinion that I'm offering up with a couple of minutes of thought. I am probably going to regret answering that question when I get up in the morning.