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Author Topic:   What's the problem with teaching ID?
RAZD
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 26 of 337 (402826)
05-30-2007 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by pwnagepanda
05-30-2007 1:15 AM


Re: I have no problem with teaching ID in a school but...
Let me clarify, it has not exactly been proven false,...
being unfalsifiable.
but the criticisms that it makes of evoltion have been thoroughly refuted
Being mostly rehashed PRATTs of creationists that is no surprise.
And welcome to the fray
Enjoy

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by pwnagepanda, posted 05-30-2007 1:15 AM pwnagepanda has replied

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 130 of 337 (429112)
10-18-2007 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by bluescat48
10-18-2007 3:07 PM


Could you please learn to use the individual reply button for replying to individuals you quote?
That (1) makes your argument easier to follow and (2) LINKs the posts so you can review the previous one. It also sends an email to the person if they are set up that way.
Thanks.

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 Message 129 by bluescat48, posted 10-18-2007 3:07 PM bluescat48 has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 146 of 337 (431255)
10-30-2007 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Beretta
10-30-2007 7:07 AM


several things
what is it that most convinces you that evolution is true
Several things.
The most convincing is probably the fact that evolution occurs every day, in every species known, that there is no species on earth where evolution - the change in hereditary traits in populations from generation to generation - does not occur.
I sense I may get some more enteresting answers on this site.
It's possible you may also learn something about reality, what evolution really is and how we can apply it to the evidence of evolution in the past.
Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Beretta, posted 10-30-2007 7:07 AM Beretta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Beretta, posted 10-30-2007 8:25 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 159 of 337 (431349)
10-30-2007 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Beretta
10-30-2007 8:25 AM


Re: several things
Welcome to the fray Beretta,
Message 147
'So, let's see. You've made up in your head a lot of stupid bullshit about the content of this site."
Some hints to make your posts better:
type [qs]quotes are easy[/qs] and it becomes:
quotes are easy
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also check out (help) links on formating questions when in the reply window.
You can also use the {PEEK} function to see how any message is formated -- and the way this is done:
Dr Adequate writes:
So, let's see. You've made up in your head a lot of stupid bullshit about the content of this site.
This helps other follow your posts in a familiar way.
... now for some comments:
No actually I have not made up my mind about anything in this site ... I think creationists make more sense of the evidence,...
LOL. The problem is that what you think, what you personally understand, and who you feel makes more sense, all have absolutely no bearing on what is true.
This is the basic problem with creationist thinking in general and teaching ID in specific ... just to use an example that takes a nod in the direction of the topic ... because they have nothing to add to what we know is real and true from science and the study of evidence.
When I supported evolution, I did so only as a result of conditioning -never really questioned the paradigm, now I question it continually.
This too is going off-topic, but it is evident that you don't really understand evolution as a starting point, so what you question is very likely a false impression. For example this statement shows a false impression of what evolution is:
The problem is that you are speaking of genetic variations not macroevolutionary changes which we never see so in fact evolution is not occurring every day before our eyes. ...
SCREEEEAAATTTCH!!!
That is the sound of moving goalposts. You asked for an example of evidence for evolution, not macroevolution. The problem you face now is defining macroevolution so that (a) we can talk about the same meaning and (b) we can see if you really understand evolution and what the science of evolution says about macroevolution.
Ways to tell a creationist type posting include (1) post not on topic, (2) moving goalposts, and (3) using terms to mean something other than the way they are used in science, things like claiming that evolution is not evolution.
Please go to MACROevolution vs MICROevolution - what is it?, read it first before adding to it (so you don't repeat errors already made by others). So far no creationist has managed to define macroevolution properly, so you could be a first.
You may also want to visit Questioning The Evolutionary Process, read your way through it and see if you learn anything.
I suppose I'm off the topic of this section but anyway -there it is.
Yes, but we kind of expect new-comers in general and creationists in specific to go off-topic based on general experience. This is a learning process. The basic reason is that staying on topic makes each thread focussed and usable as a reference for other discussions, and the secondary reason is that threads are limited to ~300 posts, so posts that are not on topic waste space for those people who do want to post on topic.
Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Beretta, posted 10-30-2007 8:25 AM Beretta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Beretta, posted 11-02-2007 2:38 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 170 of 337 (431821)
11-02-2007 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Beretta
11-02-2007 2:38 AM


several things -- all off topic (again) for this thread
Message 161
Not as far as creationists are concerned. Let's face it creation is not ...
... about teaching ID.
If something's not true, we don't care what the majority believes or was brainwashed into believing, we only care about what is true which is why we stick our necks out against tremendous odds.
Really? Perhaps you would like to test your hypothesis then. Let's use this as an example of how ID can be taught in public school science classes ... you know, something along the lines of the topic?
I hear all the 'evidence' on both sides but the evidence against evolution impresses me as well as the evidence for creation which makes evolution sound like a fairytale of epic proportions.
Then why don't you substantiate this on your Your reason for accepting evolution where this (and the false dichotomy you are still repeating) are challenged? Why dodge back here where you are off topic?
That again is what we say about evolutionists. They don't really understand the creation/ID argument ...
Such a red-herring logical fallacy argument as this is, does not refute the issue that creationists in general, and you in specific do not seem to understand evolution. If you do not understand evolution then you are not -- cannot be -- arguing about evolution.
But the real issue on this thread is teaching ID, not creationism or the failure to understand evolution. Let us start with testing the truth of the evidence and see where it leads for ID and for science without ID.
Evolutionists have lots of stories, plausible stories unsupported by the evidence. Just because a story is plausible does notmean it is necessarily true.
and
Message 165
Well said. However the 150 year old theoretical proposal by Darwin has not lived up to its promises and does not fit the evidence. Nevertheless evolutionists keep trying to stuff the evidence into their paradigm they have been led to believe and everyone of the innumerable anomalies that falsify the theory are either stuffed as fa
Again this is something you should be discussing on your Your reason for accepting evolution and not here, as it has nothing to do with ID or teaching ID.
Message 166
You're right -they've been as brainwashed as the secular world in school as well as in their seminaries. This is not to say a deceitful bunch are propogating lies just that evolution has become the accepted paradigm no longer questioned and nobody is very forthcoming with the dissenting evidences.
This is the second time you mentioned brainwashing. Perhaps you would like to substantiate this assertion on How can Biologists believe in the ToE?? So far no creationist has substantiated this kind of claim. Certainly if you are talking about truth derived from evidence you have some, otherwise it is just self-delusion.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : reduced

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Beretta, posted 11-02-2007 2:38 AM Beretta has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 175 of 337 (431861)
11-02-2007 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by bluescat48
11-02-2007 11:59 AM


But not here
evidence for creation
So submit the evidence.
But not here, do it on Your reason for accepting evolution that was started by Beretta, supposedly so he could discuss this where it isn't off topic.

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 178 of 337 (431889)
11-02-2007 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Beretta
11-02-2007 2:38 AM


Re: several things
A fuller reply is Message 18, where it is much more on topic.
Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Beretta, posted 11-02-2007 2:38 AM Beretta has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 213 of 337 (664466)
06-01-2012 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by swensenpower
06-01-2012 3:40 AM


Hi swensenpower and welcome to the fray.
I didn't actually mean that abiogenesis should not be taught. i merely wanted show that, ID is not being taught in schools because of lack of scientific evidence. and that if we applied that same judgement on abiogenesis than it would not be taught either.
Except that scientists are investigating abiogenesis based on the knowledge we have, knowledge we have gained by doing science on early rock formations and bits of atmosphere trapped in rocks, by looking at the chemical compounds in rocks from those ages compared to those we see today.
Scientists are also investigating the hypothesis of natural formation of life.
See Panspermic Pre-Biotic Molecules - Life's Building Blocks (Part I)
and Self-Replicating Molecules - Life's Building Blocks (Part II).
The number of scientists doing science on the beginning of life on earth is several orders of magnitude greater than the number of scientists doing science on ID. To make it into a science classroom you need to have scientific evidence and tested hypothesis that gave us new information through predictions of evidence that was then found.
Message 203: Man i need some support here. Am I the only believer? ...
No, but belief is not a substitute for knowledge, especially knowledge based on evidence.
Message 187: there are no facts about how life bagan, only speculations. there is no way to conduct proper experiments now becuase there is just not enough information about what things were like on earth when life started.
Better tell the abiogenecists ... those who are doing experiments on determining what the conditions were like (the ones increasing our knowledge of what the early earth was like rather than just throwing up there hands and saying "we don't know") and those doing experiments on the feasible means for life to occur in those environmentss.
Enough for now, as you are getting information from a lot of people that you need to assimilate.
Enjoy.
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we are limited in our ability to understand
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Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 224 of 337 (664542)
06-01-2012 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by NoNukes
06-01-2012 8:39 AM


Hi NoNukes
This silly question comes up quite frequently. It has likely been refuted a thousand times making it a PRATT.
Yep
quote:
The Law of Biogenesis:
Claim CB000: Pasteur and other scientists disproved the concept of spontaneous generation and established the "law of biogenesis" -- that life comes only from previous life.
Source: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1985. Life--How Did It Get Here? Brooklyn, NY, p. 38.
Response: The spontaneous generation that Pasteur and others disproved was the idea that life forms such as mice, maggots, and bacteria can appear fully formed. They disproved a form of creationism. There is no law of biogenesis saying that very primitive life cannot form from increasingly complex molecules.
One of the more simplistic PRATTs.
Creationists and IDologists would be well served to study the PRATT list by Talk Origins
An Index to Creationist Claims
AIG also maintains a PRATT list ... thought they call it "a list of arguments creationists should avoid" ... (unsaid: because you will get your head handed to you) at
Arguments to Avoid Topic | Answers in Genesis
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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