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Author Topic:   What's the problem with teaching ID?
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 1909 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 18 of 337 (392378)
03-30-2007 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by JustinC
02-28-2006 6:59 PM


Where I.D. should be taught.
A number of people have given very good reasons for not teaching I.D. in science classes, but there is a place in education for teaching about I.D.
That place is in the history of science (or, more accurately perhaps, the history of philosophy of science) and it's very useful for students to see see an illustration of how one theory (evolution) replaced another (design), and the observations that led to the change. To leave it out would be a bit like teaching Big Bang theory without mentioning that the Steady State theory once predominated. It could also be taught in the history of theology and philoshophy, of course.
We often talk about the modern U.S. Discovery Institute expression of I.D., but not so much about I.D. when it was in its prime, and was the view of the overwhelming majority. Teaching about this is not what the D.I. people want, of course, because the truth is that their pet theories are outdated history, and that truth goes directly against their attempts to present them as exciting new science.
With Creationists in the U.S. constantly trying to get their foot in the science class door, the sensitivity to the subject of I.D. is understandable, but I would argue that if any history of science is being taught, then it should certainly get more than a mention.
I.D. is ancient, course, but the best known "modern" expression came from William Paley in his "Evidences of Christianity" (1802).
Here's Charles Darwin on the subject of William Paley.
quote:
In order to pass the B.A. examination, it was, also, necessary to get up Paley's Evidences of Christianity, and his Moral Philosophy. . . The logic of this book and as I may add of his Natural Theology gave me as much delight as did Euclid. The careful study of these works, without attempting to learn any part by rote, was the only part of the Academical Course which, as I then felt and as I still believe, was of the least use to me in the education of my mind. I did not at that time trouble myself about Paley's premises; and taking these on trust I was charmed and convinced of the long line of argumentation.
Charles Darwin. Autobiography
Paley's attitude was taken "on trust" by most people at the time. Like pre-Darwinian evolutionary theories, Lamarckian, Saltationist, etc., it should be taught, and if it wasn't for the Creationist's efforts to get such ideas described as twentieth-first century ones, rather than ancient, they would be taught as history, and without controversy.

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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 1909 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 35 of 337 (424247)
09-26-2007 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Percy
09-26-2007 9:43 AM


Percy writes:
The accurate claim is that ID is unfalsifiable......Since there is no possible evidence one might imagine that could contradict ID, ID is therefore falsifiable.
Either you've fallen under pwnagenpanda's influence, Percy, or that was a rather misleading typo. (If you edit it, do wipe this post).

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 Message 32 by Percy, posted 09-26-2007 9:43 AM Percy has replied

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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 1909 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 39 of 337 (424279)
09-26-2007 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by pbee
09-26-2007 12:25 PM


pbee writes:
Wrong, teaching that life originated as the result of a higher power has nothing to do with religion.
It certainly does. Science requires evidence. Faith isn't good enough, but teaching things based on blind faith can be and is done in Sunday schools, Koran schools, etc.

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 Message 38 by pbee, posted 09-26-2007 12:25 PM pbee has replied

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 Message 40 by pbee, posted 09-26-2007 12:39 PM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 1909 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 43 of 337 (424285)
09-26-2007 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by pbee
09-26-2007 12:39 PM


pbee writes:
The creation account was not written in the name religion.
Which creation account? There are many creation mythologies.
Evidence? It was written that God created the heavens and the earth, and here we are...
bluegenes, ye olde wise seer writes:
quote:
God didn't create the heavens and the earth, and here we are...
I just wrote that, so because it's written down, it must be up to date evidence, mustn't it?
Let's save each other large potions of time and throw out the concept of matter originated from nothing as science(talk about supernatural).
Are you implying that something cannot come from nothing? Then all Gods must themselves require creators.
Edited by bluegenes, : punctuation

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 Message 40 by pbee, posted 09-26-2007 12:39 PM pbee has replied

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 Message 55 by pbee, posted 09-26-2007 1:55 PM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 1909 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 62 of 337 (424334)
09-26-2007 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by pbee
09-26-2007 1:55 PM


bluegenes satirically paraphrasing pbee implying that something written in ancient scriptures was evidence writes:
God didn't create the heavens and the earth, and here we are...
pbee writes:
Right, and no doubt we have science and reason to back-up such a statement.
My point was, and it would be obvious to most people, that because something is written down does not make it evidence.
You seem to be one of these strange people who are suffering from the fixed delusion that words written in a book thousands of years ago by people who couldn't even map a tenth of this planet have some special, magic truth and knowledge of the secrets of the universe in them.
If that's the case, what makes you think an ancient book is magical?
pbee writes:
As I stated, the onset that life originated from nothing is utter nonsense. It defies all laws. It wouldn't be so bad if your proposal was backed by logic(at the very least). At least we would have something to contemplate.
Who proposed that life originated from nothing? Certainly not me. It did not, in my opinion, and also according to every abiogenesis hypothesis I've ever heard of.

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 Message 64 by pbee, posted 09-26-2007 3:48 PM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 1909 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 71 of 337 (424346)
09-26-2007 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by pbee
09-26-2007 3:48 PM


pbee writes:
Well you've proven that you can half haphazardly prop up an argument, but I doubt you are ready to patronize others based on your own insight just yet. Without ever discriminating the scriptures, I can say with full confidence that the content(theory) provided in that single account is beyond anything we have to this very day.
Evidence, please. The book isn't magic, remember, so why should its authors know the secrets of the universe? These are people who didn't know how many continents there are on this planet, remember.
And if your semi-coherent ramblings are supposed to be support for the idea of teaching I.D. in schools (the topic) then try and explain how on earth they're supposed to do that.

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 Message 64 by pbee, posted 09-26-2007 3:48 PM pbee has replied

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 Message 73 by pbee, posted 09-26-2007 4:22 PM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 1909 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 76 of 337 (424351)
09-26-2007 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by pbee
09-26-2007 4:22 PM


pbee writes:
My point is, that we tolerate cherry picked theories in classrooms for no other reason than conforming to a scientific mindset. Why present one theory and not another? Why place more emphasis on one theory than the other? Why teach one theory and not the other? Why draft assignments based on the big bang theory and reject ID based ones?
It's because physicists present evidence for their theories, and all you present is one of the many ancient creation mythologies, apparently full of the magical stuff common in superstitious cultures which you yourself seem to describe as childish in a post above.
You need to present evidence for talking snakes if you want people to teach about them in science classes.
Science requires evidence.
It would be perfectly O.K. if your book was presented as fiction in the English class, and kids could enjoy the magic as they do with their Harry Potter books.
Edited by bluegenes, : No reason given.
Edited by bluegenes, : extra word

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 Message 73 by pbee, posted 09-26-2007 4:22 PM pbee has replied

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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 1909 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 107 of 337 (424545)
09-27-2007 11:50 AM


In any education system, the idea is to teach science in the science class, history in the history class, French in the French class, etc.
I was at in High School in the U.S. for a few years, and that's what you guys used to do, and presumably still do.
So the real question for this thread is "Is I.D. science".
My answer to that would be that, because there is no direct evidence for the intelligent designers, then the I.D. people would have to show very strong indirect evidence for their existence to get started as a science, and that is what they are trying to do.
That means demonstrating that some natural phenomena cannot be produced naturally, within the laws of the universe.
So, far, they haven't done this, so I.D. isn't science.
Decisions on what is and isn't taught in any discipline in any epoch can only be made by the experts in that discipline. The historians decide what the priorities are in history, the geographers in geography, etc.
So, the I.D. scientists should be doing what everyone else with a new hypothesis in science does; trying to convince their peers that they're on to something important.
But they can't do this, because scientists are sticklers for evidence, and they haven't actually got any yet.
But they're religious evangelists, and all such people seem to know instinctively that religions need to indoctrinate young minds in order to survive. So they're trying to skip convincing the scientists, and get in the classrooms.
The funny thing about this is that if I.D. was taught in the classroom, then all science teachers could do is outline the idea, then tell the students that there's absolutely no evidence for it. In other words, no evidence of the existence of a great intelligent designer in the sky.
Which is why it's funny, because that's the last thing evangelical Christians want taught in schools. And that's partly why the smarter Christians don't want anything to do with I.D.
So, I.D. isn't science at this point in time, so it shouldn't be taught in science classes, with one slight exception, which I think I mentioned way back at the beginning of this thread somewhere.
That's when the history of science is being taught. Then, the early nineteenth century William Paley version should certainly be taught.
How else will students understand why Richard Dawkins would entitle one of his books "The Blind Watchmaker", and what the real and important meaning of that (excellent) title is?

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 Message 108 by anglagard, posted 09-29-2007 4:42 AM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 1909 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 109 of 337 (424929)
09-29-2007 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by anglagard
09-29-2007 4:42 AM


Re: The Hammer Has Come Down
Thanks for the links, anglagard. It's not a big issue, here, really. You hardly ever hear about it.
If a significant proportion of U.K. parents were really serious about having their children taught creationism, they could always get off their arses, and go to church once in a while, couldn't they? (5% regularly attend religious services, and if it's Church of England or Catholic, they're not creationists in the sense that we use the word on EvC, anyway).
I think it's funny that the creationist movement has wasted money on what must've been tens of thousands of DVDs.
Edited by bluegenes, : bad spelin

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