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Author Topic:   What's the problem with teaching ID?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 183 of 337 (664343)
05-31-2012 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by achristian1985
02-17-2010 11:26 PM


Re: Genesis is an evolutionary account
delete
Edited by NoNukes, : Remove response to ancient article.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by achristian1985, posted 02-17-2010 11:26 PM achristian1985 has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 186 of 337 (664386)
05-31-2012 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by swensenpower
05-31-2012 9:35 AM


Why not teach the students in a non bias manor as many major ideas about it as we can. Allow the students to excursive critical thinking skills
Because after the brief section in which abiogenesis is discussed, the text is going to spend more time talking about evolution, and it is likely that evolution will be brought up again throughout the course.
Teaching non-scientific claptrap that does not fit with the rest of the course would not be productive. ID which is non-science, and other forms of creationism just don't belong in a science course.
If I were teaching biology I'd be more than happy to spend a few moments pointing out the laughingstock that is ID or giggling about how a jar of peanut butter disproves a-biogenesis, or rofling about how a banana disproves evolution.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by swensenpower, posted 05-31-2012 9:35 AM swensenpower has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by swensenpower, posted 06-01-2012 1:10 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 214 of 337 (664467)
06-01-2012 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by swensenpower
06-01-2012 1:10 AM


but by the 19 hundreds there was enough scientific observation to form the law of biogenesis and disprove the spontaneous generation of life. Back then we knew that life did not come from non living objects so why do we believe it today?
This silly question comes up quite frequently. It has likely been refuted a thousand times making it a PRATT.
I think you are confused about what the 19th century experiments on biogenesis actually demonstrated. They showed that microbes and maggots do not form spontaneously in flasks of chicken broth as was believed at the time. That's certainly not enough of an experiment to disprove abiogenesis as is postulated in text books.
ID simply is not science at all. It really is that simple.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by swensenpower, posted 06-01-2012 1:10 AM swensenpower has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by RAZD, posted 06-01-2012 7:12 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 215 of 337 (664468)
06-01-2012 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by Chuck77
06-01-2012 7:12 AM


There is no obligation to respond to posts. But a mere 12 posts is not much of a pile.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Chuck77, posted 06-01-2012 7:12 AM Chuck77 has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 220 of 337 (664479)
06-01-2012 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by swensenpower
06-01-2012 2:06 AM


Man i need some support here. Am I the only believer? it seems that way. I don't have time to reply to every one unless i spend more time than I plan to in this forum. Please don't believe that you out witted or stumped me if i don't reply even if it is the case.
Take your time. Respond to as many or as few messages as you feel comfortable with responding to.
I would caution you against the idea that the people who disagree with you are all atheists. But, it is the case that most of the Creationists here are absolutely no help in a science based discussion.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by swensenpower, posted 06-01-2012 2:06 AM swensenpower has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 249 of 337 (664959)
06-06-2012 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by jar
06-06-2012 8:24 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
If and when they do, yes, they will have to present a convincing model of how the signal was generated.
This task might not be the least bit difficult. There are huge numbers of ways to program a machine to generate prime numbers. As long as the signal was not from a source that was seemingly impossible to control or modulate, it would be more difficult to imagine a natural source that generated the first 500 prime numbers.
Genomicus point is simply that it might be possible to have indirect evidence for a designer. I agree, at least in principle. Just because specified complexity and irreducible complexity are abject failures does not mean that no other tool indirect evidence can exist.
ID is junk. The current state of ID does indeed seem to be argument by incredibility of "evolution".

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by jar, posted 06-06-2012 8:24 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by jar, posted 06-06-2012 8:52 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 253 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 8:57 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 279 of 337 (664994)
06-06-2012 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Genomicus
06-06-2012 9:05 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
Hmm. Looks like these shapes of artificial objects would produce an intelligent transit.
Holy cow dude. I guess I have to leave you out on that limb by yourself.
Nothing you've quoted tell us how to detect intelligence. Notice the phrase "assuming these transits are distinguishable from a simple planetary transit".
What is the proposed method for satisfying this assumption?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 9:05 PM Genomicus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 10:38 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 280 of 337 (664995)
06-06-2012 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by Genomicus
06-06-2012 10:31 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
focus on predictions made exclusively by ID hypotheses.
You're onto something here. Can you list some examples of predictions which must be satisfied if ID is correct, or alternatively results which flow from the hypothesis of ID that would not be true if evolution was correct?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 10:31 PM Genomicus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 10:39 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 292 of 337 (665011)
06-07-2012 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by Genomicus
06-06-2012 10:38 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
Jar specifically asked me to cite papers wherein we would infer design regardless of the fact that (a) we don't know how the object was designed, and (b) we don't have the lab, and (c) we don't have the designer.
Your example does not work because the method for inferring the design is presented as an assumption. By including a naked assumption that we can tell remotely whether a transit of a star is by an artificial planet, you simply kicked the can done the street. Do you have any idea how we would tell a designed transit from a natural one?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 10:38 PM Genomicus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by Genomicus, posted 06-07-2012 10:31 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 305 of 337 (665046)
06-07-2012 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by Genomicus
06-07-2012 10:31 AM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
So, if we find that an orbiting body has an exotic shape (something not likely produced by gravity), we could reliably infer design - unless the author of this paper and many other scientists are wrong about inferring design
Which is exactly the point.
The thing that is controversial about ID is the belief (unsupported by any evidence) that we can recognize design solely by looking at biological specimens. I'm willing to believe that such a thing is possible in principle, but I haven't seen anyone describe a method for doing so.
In short, you are begging the question with this example.
In one sense, Jar is right. If you want to convince (and perhaps that is not your goal) that method Y can be used to determine that an organism is designed, you'll need to present some way to verify that such is the case. But we don't have any way to 'calibrate' method Y because there are no agreed upon examples of designed organisms.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Genomicus, posted 06-07-2012 10:31 AM Genomicus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by Genomicus, posted 06-07-2012 2:08 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 306 of 337 (665047)
06-07-2012 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Genomicus
06-06-2012 10:39 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
or the record: I discussed this prediction of the FLH on a thread on this site some months ago.
The most important part of this discussion would be whether this particular prediction is evidence that FLH is a superior hypothesis to evolution which simply explains the same result.
I think the answer is clearly NO. I will note that some of the discussion attached to the article in your link goes into some detail why this is the case.
Further, I would dispute whether this is really a 'prediction' is a true prediction at all. It is not enough that the designer be teleological, or that the designer is using front loading. Instead the designer must have a particular front loading mindset that results in something that we already know to be the case. In short this seems to be exactly the kind of giraffe's neck ad hoc argument Dr. Adequate discussed.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 10:39 PM Genomicus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by Genomicus, posted 06-07-2012 2:13 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 319 of 337 (665065)
06-07-2012 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 310 by Genomicus
06-07-2012 2:13 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
However, I argued in that article why the front-loading hypothesis requires that eukaryotic proteins share deep homology with unnecessary but functional prokaryotic proteins. Front-loading basically would not work if we did not see this.
I don't understand why you think this makes your argument more convincing.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by Genomicus, posted 06-07-2012 2:13 PM Genomicus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 320 by Genomicus, posted 06-07-2012 3:32 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
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