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Author Topic:   What's the problem with teaching ID?
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 12 of 337 (392327)
03-30-2007 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by JustinC
02-28-2006 6:59 PM


The standard water cycle: The sun warms the sea, the water vapor forms clouds, the clouds condense and it rains, the rain returns to the sea.
However, some people don't think water vapor can form as the result of warming from the sun, so:
The ID water cycle: An intelligent agent causes the water vapor to seperate from the sea, uses an unseen force to clump it together to form clouds and at an opportune moment causes it to rain. Since rain cannot find the sea without knowing where it is going, the agent guides it in the form of 'rivers'.
ID star formation: Since nuclear reactors are too complex to build by chance alone (Source), an intelligent agent gathered together all the correct molecules and arranged them in near perfect spheres. The theory of gravity has lots of holes in it - and there are many that doubt that gravity alone can keep stars and galaxies together. This agent exerts a force to keep them from flying apart and ensures they don't burn out of fuel. This agent also ensures that just the right amount of material is produced in these heavy element factories, to be used in creating life.
It is difficult to get it across in conversation. However, teaching kids known untruths about biology is bad for kids. Teaching kids that the tentativity of science gives them licence to invent unparsominous entities to fill gaps in our knowledge (or worse yet, having teachers use untruths to imply a non-existant gap in knowledge in which to fill with an unparsominous entity) is bad.
Science is about discovering the truths about the universe using a chain such as
negative evidence -> positive evidence -> reasoning -> theory.
Life wasn't created 6000 years ago -> [evidence for natural history/evolution] -> Natural History/evolution -> The theory of evolution, and the concept of natural history.
ID is closer to
negative evidence -> reasoning -> theory.
Flaggella cannot possibly evolve! -> if it can't evolve it must be designed by an intelligent entity -> An Intelligent Designer was involved in the creation of the flaggella.
Since this is not science it should not be taught in science. The idea of going from negative evidence to reasoning without positive evidence is something that should be discussed in philosophy class.
Imagine this:
We don't die when we lose consciousness -> When we die we might not lose consciousness -> afterlife.
This is the same kind of construct that ID seems to work from.
It might be great to try thinking like this, and it might be useful - but it should not be taught as a scientific way of thinking, because that will cause problems for kids if they want to go into science and their head is filled with the wrong way to think about things.
Less able to compete with other, more disciplined, scientific thinkers they may find themselves in the position of only having the skills to teach - allowing the cycle to build momentum.
Would it be an unmitigated disaster, no - not necessarily. Kids can throw the shackles of miseducation - but it would be at least a small disaster...think of the Wedge Document and its insidious plan.
Would it open the way for other nonscientific theories?
Behe said it best when he conceded that if we changed the definition of theory so that it included Intelligent Design it would also include astrology.
And we know one thing - a determined group of wealthy charismatic people will try and get their own agenda pushed, including astrologers (there are plenty of celebrity psychics/fortune tellers, and many of them are as greedy and opportunistic as many of the evangelists are).
Infringe on the first ammendment?
I don't think the first ammendment, on its own, guarantees a secular science education.

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 Message 1 by JustinC, posted 02-28-2006 6:59 PM JustinC has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 155 of 337 (431313)
10-30-2007 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Beretta
10-30-2007 7:53 AM


Re: New member is confused
Evolutionists tend to push their beliefs very aggressively though I have not found them particularly convincing.
I watched "Flock of Dodos" recently and it spoke of science's PR problem. On the side of ID and Creationism are laywers and PR experts and a multi-million dollar budget, with only one agenda...to promote their concept. On the side of science you have less organisation, with the National Centre for Science education being the most organised and well funded and it's budget isn't even one million dollars (and it has a other things on its agenda than just repelling anti-evolutionist lawyers).
Thus: if you judge purely on presentation you are almost certainly going to come to agree with the ID side of the debate. Content is much more difficult to judge on, but with time you can see the lack of content on one side versus the massive content on the other.
I'm sure you heard news about the John Kerry campaign and how he got 'swiftboated' - the same people that ran that negative campaign are involved in the negative campaign against evolution. Scientists are not politicians, so they'll get beaten at this game every time. However, courtrooms are excellent and nullifying platitudes and examining the evidence and getting to the facts of the matter - it's what they were designed for, though they are far from perfect. In the court room, ID and creationism collapses into a heap of empty rhetoric - as we've seen time and time again.
"Teach the Controversy" - it's a genius catchphrase that appeals to the sense of fairness in us all. American science needs some of those guys on their side, then America would undoubtedly remain one of the top science nations in the world (and with its finances, what wonders we could discover!). Unfortunately, 'those guys' demand a lot of money.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Beretta, posted 10-30-2007 7:53 AM Beretta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Beretta, posted 11-02-2007 2:22 AM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 172 of 337 (431838)
11-02-2007 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Beretta
11-02-2007 2:22 AM


Re: New member is confused
I was referring principally to how the ideas are presented to the public at large, not to school children specifically. To adults, they hear about evolution from scientists - who are generally less able to present the case in an appealing way to the lay person.
On the other hand, the spokespeople for ID and Creation are disproportionately lawyers and preachers and politicians and PR experts. People who are experts at shaping public opinion, basically.
Hence - if you judge purely on the presentation - ID and creationism wins.
Let's face it creation is not sponsered by tax dollars since it is not the official religion....even though you've been told all this rubbish about massive funding and PR for creationists, isn't it obvious that that can't be true relative to what evolutionists have at their disposal?
The biggest institute that 'defends' evolution is the NCSE. It has a budget of $700,000 pa last I heard. The biggest institute for ID has a budget of 5,000,000. Answers in Genesis, a Creationist organisation that attacks evolution has had a revenue of over $7,000,000. Their sales revenue alone is almost double that of the entire budge of NCSE. NCSE is not just dedicated to evolution either, they have other things to spend their money on.
So the money available for a public opinion campaign are significantly one sided. That's all I was saying.
There is no lack of content only content you don't really want to hear so you miss everything you don't feel like believing because you assume contradictory evidence is just propoganda when you should actually check it out and make sure of that.
You can certainly believe that if you want. However you have no evidence for that proposition, you just have to believe it otherwise how can you explain the evidence that otherwise intelligent people can reject ID?
Teach the controversy is just your opposition attempting to get the truth heard
Yes, it's a catchphrase they took from a liberal arts professor who believed the best way to learn about the arts is to learn about the history of disagreements over subjects so students have the relevant context to know how the current academic consensus came to be. I'm all for doing that, it is how I learned evolution. However, this is not what the Design Institute is proposing. They don't want students learning all about how the design hypothesis came to be rejected, they want to give the illusion that the design hypothesis is still valid.
When asked to demonstrate how they could do this, they have to redefine science in such a way as to include astrology (by their own admission). For consistency then, they should be proposing we teach astrology (and its geocentric views) as well as astronomy.
not by introducing ID or creationism into the classroom
Actually it was originally intended to introduce creationism into the classrooms, the courts shut that avenue down so they tried Intelligent Design. There is a direct link between the two ideas; the evidence is overwhelming. After the courts shot down Intelligent Design they invented 'Teach the controversy' and other such catchy phrases. However, the courts ruled that ID was just a negative argument against evolution and 'Teach the controversy' means teach a negative argument against evolution. The two are essentially the same concept - and that is why it shouldn't get into the classroom.
Why would this be so threatening?
I'm sure you would understand people getting upset if the proposal that we should teach the controversy over the holocaust was being seriously considered by school boards. Or if we should also teach the occult in general science class. How about teaching tarot card readings in business studies? Or shamanism in meteorology?
It's threatening precisely because the Wedge Strategy put forward is threatening. It is one root taken by the religious right (which heavily funds discrediting materialism, as the Wedge Strategy proposes), in an attempt to make the USA a more Christian nation and in some people's hopes and dreams: institute a theocracy.
That's a threat.
allowing the evidence against evolution to be taught alongside its so-called proofs.
There is no evidence against evolution. Otherwise I'd be happy for it to be presented. As it stands, there are things for which a complete explanation has not been developed or discovered - but that mirrors the rest of science. We could go into this in class, but it would mean sacrificing teaching other things, and if we had to go into it for all science equally - we'd barely have time to teach kids any science at all.
The mysteries and the unexplained are taught at university level, where people are being trained with an eye to solving the unexplained (ie., scientists).
They don't really want children to hear the downside just in case logic and truth takes hold of them and another potential evolutionist is lost.
When a downside is presented - I'm happy for it to be taught. As it stands, no downside has been presented - only pseudoscience. I would dearly love for children to get a better education than they do, but I am unable to create a system in which to do this. As it stands, each subject's teachers have to do what they can to teach the kids the current knowledge of the subject. If there is genuine controversy, by all means mention it. If the only controversy is one manufactured by groups with a idealogical intent (holocaust deniers, moon landing hoaxers, the evolution deniers), then that should not be taught.
I'm perfectly happy for a history teacher to advise the students that some people have come to denying the reality of the holocaust in spite of the evidence. That they look for gaps in knowledge to prove their ideas, and they have to use suspicious science based on faulty research. They exist kids, beware of them - their motivation is sinister.
Likewise with creationism and ID. People naturally conclude there was a designer, but evidence was acquired that showed that no designer was inherently necessary. No positive evidence for the designer, or any mechanism for how it implements the design have emerged. As the evidence grew and grew, and the predictions started coming in - scientists realized that evolution explained nature in a useful and coherent fashion. That no evidence exists that runs directly counter to the theory or the historical overview. Beware kids, creationist's motivations are sinister.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Beretta, posted 11-02-2007 2:22 AM Beretta has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Wounded King, posted 11-02-2007 3:32 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 177 of 337 (431876)
11-02-2007 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Wounded King
11-02-2007 3:32 PM


Re: New member is confused
I don't think that is generally true. Less inclined perhaps but not necessarily less able, although I guess it depends what you consider 'appealing'.
Sure, there are some stars who can explain these things wonderfully to a receptive audience. I have observed, however, that many people are taken in by the homeliness and friendliness and charisma of the spokespersons for ID and that they report a perception of being turned off by the personalities of scientists. People will report that they talk in jargon or sound arrogant or whatever. So like I say, I think this is a PR issue for educating adults about science.
I'd also question the contention that this is where where most adults get their information about evolution.
What I was going for was 'accurate information' or at least 'correct' information.
I would have thought that rather than scientists the media would be the primary source, perhaps only indirectly from scientists.
Exactly, and we know that selling something in the media requires a different skill set than convincing one's peers. The perception many people have is that scientists either try and talk to them as if they were peers in science or that they patronise them. If science could afford to employ good PR agents, we might find ourselves in a different position. The crashing boors in academia seem to out number the Carl Sagans in the public's eye - as far as my observation has it.
Not the entirety of the public always, obviously. Those members who actively engage with science will find many speakers who can explain these concepts in a pleasing and easy manner, but they tend to require a receptive audience, not a passive one. Passive audiences are a different group to appeal to.
So yeah - given that TV and other media are the ways in which people get their science knowledge from, we need more scientific media darlings who can inspire their audiences and create the demand for more! Ratings, darling, ratings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Wounded King, posted 11-02-2007 3:32 PM Wounded King has not replied

  
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