Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,912 Year: 4,169/9,624 Month: 1,040/974 Week: 367/286 Day: 10/13 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Does Darwinism Equal "No God"?
Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 298 (270027)
12-16-2005 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by randman
12-15-2005 4:13 PM


The truth is a lot of what evos asserted is totally unproven. We still don't know, for example, to what degree mutations are random, and according to these guys, this random aspect of mutations is the core of Darwinism and evolutionary theory.
Mutations, in a chemical sense, aren't random.
Given chemical knowledge of the nucleus of the spermatoza and the nucleus of the egg cell and a computer of significant computational power you could determine whether or not there will be a deviation from the parental genes.
When it is said that mutation is random, it means it has no purpose or goal.
When you say "We still don't know, for example, to what degree mutations are random", do you mean we don't know their frequency in a temporal or spatial sense or we don't know how constrained or "under control" they are?
I think it's patently obvious that this willful, unscientific assertion lies at the core of the reasoning behind evolution.
To be frank, no.
People don't get into science to discredit Christianity or laugh at theists, they get into because they find it interesting.
What lies at the core of the reasoning behind evolution is the desire to understand the natural world, which neither breeds nor requires militant atheism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by randman, posted 12-15-2005 4:13 PM randman has not replied

Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 298 (270061)
12-16-2005 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by randman
12-16-2005 2:00 PM


Re: Off topic and out of line
To say they only occur randomly is asserting a presupposition.
They occur randomly in the sense that they are undirected.
There is of course a cause, a chemical one, but that has no bearing on the randomness in the context of biology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by randman, posted 12-16-2005 2:00 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by randman, posted 12-16-2005 2:33 PM Son Goku has replied

Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 298 (270066)
12-16-2005 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by randman
12-16-2005 2:33 PM


Re: Off topic and out of line
How do we know that? How did Darwin know that?
They are undirected by the animal, that is all that matters to the scientific theory.
Why does it have no bearing? There is a cause that stems from an ordered set of principles.
It has no bearing because as far as the animal is concerned it is random, that is all that matters.
The animal does not control the mutations, there are simply a group of mutations that occur because of chemical process and the best suited one to that particular environment will have the greatest chance of being selected.
This is why it doesn't matter, because all that matters is that there is a range of mutations which came about without knowledge of the environment.
In other words the animal didn't recognize which would be best suited and select it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by randman, posted 12-16-2005 2:33 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by randman, posted 12-16-2005 3:24 PM Son Goku has replied

Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 298 (270139)
12-16-2005 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by randman
12-16-2005 3:24 PM


Re: Off topic and out of line
The assertation that random mutations means there is no Designer has nothing to do with the animal itself not being able to direct mutations,
You asked me why it has no bearing and I told you. I wasn't making any statement about the above, I was explaining the use of the term random.
Typical evo argument.....attack the neocons when all else fails. It's all Fox News, George Bush, Dick Cheney and Pat Robertson's fault, .....honestly.
I know this is directed at somebody else and since I come from Ireland perhaps I don't get the context, but what does a "typical evo arguement" mean?
Are you seriously putting people who consider evolution valid into a group with its own sterotypes?
Its too broad a group of people and I've never met anybody for whom their opinion that evolution is valid was a character trait.
It could be the mental state or behaviour of some animals does affect some mutations.
Bottom line is we really don't know.
How would the mental state of an animal effect its genes, by what mechanism would it occur?
How could the animal being happy, mad, sad, e.t.c. effect the chemical bonding processes when the zygote forms?
There is no evidence for it at the moment, in fact there is evidence to the contrary.
Bottom line is we know that it is either a non-existent or negligible effect in most animals.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by randman, posted 12-16-2005 3:24 PM randman has not replied

Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 298 (270164)
12-16-2005 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by randman
12-16-2005 6:21 PM


OFF TOPIC!
OFF TOPIC -
PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS MESSAGE
Furthermore, they are simply wrong because there is no empirical evidence mutations are random.
What exactly do you mean by this?
Do you mean random in the sense of being undirected?
Do you mean random spatially or temporally?
When the mutations are referred to as random it refers to their context in a biological setting.
Randomness doesn't literally mean something which is removed from completely from causality.
It is simply a statement of the lack of knowledge on behalf of something or the lack of continuity of information between two entities.
In this sense mutations are random to natural selection, it doesn't watch and "mollycoddle" a specific mutation, instead from its perspective it is presented with a smorgasbord of random mutations.
OFF TOPIC -
PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS MESSAGE
This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 12-16-2005 07:39 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by randman, posted 12-16-2005 6:21 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by randman, posted 12-16-2005 7:38 PM Son Goku has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024