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Author Topic:   The Power of the New Intelligent Design...
Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 763 of 1197 (906886)
02-16-2023 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 761 by sensei
02-16-2023 7:41 PM


Re: Typical?
sensei writes:
At what point do you accept that it is not what evolution predicts?
I agree that evolution does not predict that there should be the same amount of change in morphology across all lineages. So why do you think it does make this prediction?
You also don't understand that taxonomic orders don't exist in nature, nor do phyla, classes, genera, and so forth. Linnaean taxonomy is no longer used in biology because the divisions between the different groups is arbitrary and subjective, and they also lack the correct branching structure. It has been replaced by cladistics which uses objective divisions between clades. A new clade is created every time a speciation event occurs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 761 by sensei, posted 02-16-2023 7:41 PM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 764 by sensei, posted 02-16-2023 7:53 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 765 of 1197 (906890)
02-16-2023 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 764 by sensei
02-16-2023 7:53 PM


Re: Typical?
sensei writes:
So you think evolution predicts numerous grand branching events in one group and none in noumerous others in similar time frame?
Can you give me a single reason why the rates of speciation should be the same in all lineages over a similar time frame?
The theory makes no predictions about the rate of speciation in any lineage, and there is no reason it should. Speciation is extremely contingent on factors that differ both temporally and geographically. There are also fitness landscapes where species go up an fitness peak and can't descend back down which results in conservation of characteristics.
Fitness landscape - Wikipedia

This message is a reply to:
 Message 764 by sensei, posted 02-16-2023 7:53 PM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 766 by sensei, posted 02-16-2023 8:10 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 767 of 1197 (906893)
02-16-2023 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 766 by sensei
02-16-2023 8:10 PM


Re: Typical?
sensei writes:
You are now offically a broken record, repeating the same strawman over and over again.
Then explain your position if you think I am misrepresenting it.
Another dishonest evolutionist, lying to protect their precious false theory.
What lie?
"Such variety in one group on the level of orders, but the absence of such in so many other common groups, is evidence of design choice. It does not at all fit the evolution narrative of random mutation upon mutation upon mutation happening in each and every group."
That's what you said, isn't it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 766 by sensei, posted 02-16-2023 8:10 PM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 768 by sensei, posted 02-16-2023 8:16 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 769 of 1197 (906897)
02-16-2023 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 768 by sensei
02-16-2023 8:16 PM


Re: Typical?
sensei writes:
The lie that I ever made any claim or suggestion that rate of change needing to be exactly the same. I already explained with examples how extremely skewed the distribution is.
Why is that extreme skew a problem for the theory? You have never explained that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 768 by sensei, posted 02-16-2023 8:16 PM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 771 by sensei, posted 02-16-2023 8:31 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 775 of 1197 (906905)
02-16-2023 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 771 by sensei
02-16-2023 8:31 PM


Re: Typical?
sensei writes:
It's a problem because of probability.
How so? Spell it out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 771 by sensei, posted 02-16-2023 8:31 PM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 785 by sensei, posted 02-16-2023 9:02 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 776 of 1197 (906906)
02-16-2023 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 774 by Dredge
02-16-2023 8:36 PM


Re: Typical?
Dredge writes:
So God could create the universe out of nothing, create stars and planets and create life on earth ... but God could not create a nested hierarchy?
God could not create species so they don't fit into a nested hierarchy?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 774 by Dredge, posted 02-16-2023 8:36 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 782 of 1197 (906914)
02-16-2023 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 781 by Dredge
02-16-2023 8:55 PM


Re: Typical?
Dredge writes:
Fossil evidence of evolutionary links between pre-Cambrian and Cambrian life-forms is practically non-existent ... so much for your nested hierarchy!
Lack of fossil evidence does not make the nested hierarchy go away. We can add you to the list of people who don't understand what a nested hierarchy is.
Can you tell us how the distribution of characteristics in pre-Cambrian life violates a nested hierarchy?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 781 by Dredge, posted 02-16-2023 8:55 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 828 by Dredge, posted 02-18-2023 7:57 PM Taq has replied
 Message 832 by Dredge, posted 02-19-2023 3:21 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 783 of 1197 (906915)
02-16-2023 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 779 by Dredge
02-16-2023 8:50 PM


Re: Typical?
Dredge writes:
The Cambrian explosion destroys Darwin's single tree of life.
HOW???
Instead of one tree, the fossil record reveals many separates trees, which represent the many phyla that appeared during the Cambrian.
How did you determine that they are separate trees?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 779 by Dredge, posted 02-16-2023 8:50 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 788 of 1197 (906923)
02-16-2023 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 785 by sensei
02-16-2023 9:02 PM


Re: Typical?
sensei writes:
So many of mentioned groups have lived now for hundreds of millions of years all over Earth under variety of circumstances. And none of them were able to start and complete a grand branching event in all those different circumstances?
This is what you said before:
"Look at the many species of crocodiles, mosquitos, spiders, ants, worms, snakes, butterflies. Such huge varieties in sizes, colors, shapes, but each fit perfectly inside their niche group for period of tens or hundreds of millions of years. Yet one single mammal ancestor species supposedly branched by progressive evolution into over 20 different orders of species. Such variety in one group on the level of orders, but the absence of such in so many other common groups, is evidence of design choice."
How are mammals any different than these other groups. With mammals we have everything from monotremes to bats to whales to squirrels to bison to kangaroos . . . that's a lot of different species. What are you on about? What exactly are you comparing?
And how in the world do you determine that a "branching event" is complete?
If branching happens at such rate, we would never see the tremendously huge variety of life that we see today, withing 4 billion years.
We do see a huge variety of life. Look around. Vertebrates have been around for less than a billion years, and look at all the variety. Arthropods have been around for less than a billion years, and look at all their variety. You have everything from insects to clams to sea cucumbers to lobsters. What planet do you live on?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 785 by sensei, posted 02-16-2023 9:02 PM sensei has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 789 of 1197 (906924)
02-16-2023 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 787 by sensei
02-16-2023 9:05 PM


Re: Typical?
sensei writes:
You rather give magical powers to natural selection, believing it can supernaturally form intelligent life through random steps.
You are projecting.
Please show us the genetic differences between humans and other apes that you think could not be produced by mutations and natural selection. Which ones do you think require supernatural magic?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 787 by sensei, posted 02-16-2023 9:05 PM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 793 by sensei, posted 02-16-2023 9:34 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 792 of 1197 (906931)
02-16-2023 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 791 by sensei
02-16-2023 9:24 PM


Re: Typical?
sensei writes:
Evolution of all life to such a complexity, requires more magic and supernatural defyance of probability.
Where's the evidence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 791 by sensei, posted 02-16-2023 9:24 PM sensei has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 799 of 1197 (906938)
02-16-2023 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 793 by sensei
02-16-2023 9:34 PM


Re: Typical?
sensei writes:
How about single cell starts multiplying and form a bunch of cell, into larger living being, replicating genetic material with each cell division. How do some cells magically start thinking of producing a different type of cells with each only half of the genetic materials?
First, show that a cell thinks, and that this conscious process is what results in differentiation into different cell types.
And what in the world do you mean by "only half of the genetic materials"? You do realize that the whole genome is duplicated for each cell division, right? All cells have the same amount of DNA.
And even if evolution managed such, the one of the new type cells also need to have a system of disposing the genetic content inside the other new type of cells.
What in the world are you talking about?
Did you know that all of the somatic cells in your body, from immune cells to muscle cells to intestinal cells, all have the same genome? The same amount of DNA?
The only exceptions are strange cells like human red blood cells that lose their entire genome, or germ cells that have have half of the genome which is needed for sexual reproduction (do you know what diploid and haploid are?). Otherwise, I have no idea what you are trying to describe here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 793 by sensei, posted 02-16-2023 9:34 PM sensei has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 802 by AZPaul3, posted 02-16-2023 9:46 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


(3)
Message 803 of 1197 (906954)
02-16-2023 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 802 by AZPaul3
02-16-2023 9:46 PM


Re: Typical?
AZPaul3 writes:
Confusion with meiosis?
I think it is much deeper than that. I highly doubt sensei knows what meiosis is, or what diploid and haploid are. It looks like he thinks that after 3 cell divisions from a single cell that the resulting 8 cells will each have 1/8th of the original genome. If he doesn't understand mitosis, I doubt he understands meiosis.
I also suspect that he thinks there are a set of . . . say, kidney cell genes. It reads like sensei thinks the kidney cell throws out everything that isn't a kidney cell gene and then makes a kidney cell.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 802 by AZPaul3, posted 02-16-2023 9:46 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 808 by sensei, posted 02-16-2023 10:26 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 807 of 1197 (906963)
02-16-2023 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 804 by sensei
02-16-2023 10:09 PM


Re: Typical?
sensei writes:
How did it happen the very first time? Before, every cell only know how to duplicate and form together multicellular life.
That would require us to have live cells from billions of years ago which we don't have. How multicellularity first evolved will always be a mystery because we simply don't have the DNA needed.
However, we do have examples of very simple multicellular organisms now, as well as organisms that are intermediate. All of the intermediate stages can be found in extant life.
For example, the volvox which has just 2 or 3 cell types and is very simple:
What is natural about splitting into half cells, that can't duplicate and are lost.
I have no idea what you are talking about. What are these half cells you are talking about?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 804 by sensei, posted 02-16-2023 10:09 PM sensei has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 809 of 1197 (906967)
02-16-2023 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 808 by sensei
02-16-2023 10:26 PM


Re: Typical?
sensei writes:
Were a group of cells in the multicellular being accidentically triggered to produce cells with only half of genetic material?
No, why would they????
You are made up of trillions of cells, and you started out as one cell. Do you think each of your cells today has one trillionth of the DNA that the first cell had?
They would have all had the same amount of DNA. What they would do is turn on and turn off different genes in that genome which would allow each cell to do a different job, just like your cells in your body.
How did a species go from reproduction by cell division only, one day, and then later on another day through (self or sexual) fertilization of eggs and sperm.
Probably the same way it works now. There are single cell yeast species that reproduce both asexually (i.e. cell division) and sexually. If single cell species can do it, it can't be that hard for multicellular species to do it.
Did the species first evolve the capability to produce the unfertilized eggs and only later the sperm.
The single celled yeast species that sexually reproduce don't have sperm or eggs. They just have single cells that are the same size with the same motility. They merge and form a diploid genome just like sperm and egg.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 808 by sensei, posted 02-16-2023 10:26 PM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 811 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-16-2023 11:10 PM Taq has not replied
 Message 817 by sensei, posted 02-18-2023 11:37 AM Taq has replied

  
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