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Author Topic:   The Power of the New Intelligent Design...
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(2)
Message 555 of 1197 (904805)
01-07-2023 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 545 by Dredge
01-07-2023 12:14 PM


Dredge writes:
The theory of evolution is a mendacious abuse of science and its aim is to deceive as many suckers as possible into believing that life on earth is the result of a known natural process and is not the miraculous work of a divine Creator (aka God).

In other words, ToE is a demonic invention based on fantasy and lies. Ironically, the principal purveyors of ToE are atheists, who don't believe demons exist. Nevertheless, Satan uses these clueless atheist pawns to spread and promote his lies and nonsense.
Quick question Dredge. I'm trying to understand exactly what you do believe. Is it instant creationism, is it a guided evolutionary program or is it intelligent design as per the Discovery Institute? If the latter can you outline your view of that belief.
Also why do you hold that belief in light of your Christian faith?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 545 by Dredge, posted 01-07-2023 12:14 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 562 by Dredge, posted 01-19-2023 1:10 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(2)
Message 566 of 1197 (905203)
01-19-2023 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 562 by Dredge
01-19-2023 1:10 PM


Dredge writes:
I believe life started as a miracle and that life could not exist without intelligent design.
(As hard as it is to accept, even atheists and Darwinoids are the result of intelligent design.)

I accept the scientific evidence that suggests life on earth started as simple forms, and as time (possibly millions-billions of years) went by, more complex and diverse life-forms appeared.
The term "intelligent design" is a slippery one and on this forum we have to be careful as to how we use it I agree with the basic use of the term but unfortunately the folks behind the Discovery Institute have co=opted the term and have made it a term based on a weak scientific theory. I think that the best way of looking at this is that taken by Chris Barrigar in his book Freedom All the Way Up
We live in a world where the future is open and where conscious creatures such as ourselves have free will. Barrigar with an extensive background in theology, philosophy and science thoughtfully proposes that God brought about life with the evolutionary process designed in such a way to have a high probability of ultimately producing sentient creatures with the capability of what he calls agapeic love.
In that sense evolution becomes an entirely natural process which is really all we have evidence for. Barrigar's position is that there was no need for God to intervene in the process.
You raise the point of starting with simple life forms. The simple life forms are again something that shouldn't necessarily be considered as being the result of instant creation but it seems logical to believe there were natural processes that brought them into existence as well. Apparently the world was around for around 10 billion years before those simple life forms came into exitance. I suggest that God is the mind behind the processes that allowed for the probability of life.
All of that of course is simply a discussion around the concept of creative intelligence as being distinct from being about any specific deity. It even includes deism.
Dredge writes:
What process was responsible for the appearance of those life-forms cannot ever be known ... however, I'm sure neo-Darwinism isn't the answer. I suspect the aforementioned changes in life-forms were the result of divine intervention.

I believe (neo-)Darwinism is a demonically-inspired cult, the aim of which is to promote atheism (therefore it comes as no surprise that that cult is riddled with con-men, charlatans and liars).
I'd be really careful about calling atheism demonic. Firstly if we are the result of evolution then maybe we should look at natural causes for evil. When we do that we can then look at the evil that is done by both theists including Christianist in the name of their deity, as well as the good that atheists can do.
Also, I'd suggest that using that type of language about those who disagree with you is not helpful and frankly kinda un-Christian.
I believe that God does intervene in this world through the hearts and minds of conscious beings and particularly through humans.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 562 by Dredge, posted 01-19-2023 1:10 PM Dredge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 567 by Taq, posted 01-19-2023 3:11 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 568 of 1197 (905218)
01-19-2023 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 567 by Taq
01-19-2023 3:11 PM


Taq writes:
I was reading the blurb on Amazon and came across this:

"Materialism (atheism) claim the universe has no meaning, . . ."

Oy. You would think that if someone was going to write about atheism that they would learn what atheism actually is. Many, many atheists, myself included, find meaning in the universe. A lot of these misunderstandings could be cured by having honest and open conversations with atheists. I have actually seen Christian apologists who speak honestly about atheists, so I know it's possible. I just wish it were more common.
I think you are reading something into this that wasn't intended. Science tells us taht some day this world will no longer exist due to some cosmic catastrophe. Personally I believe that civilization will end because we did oursleves in with nuclear or chemical weapons, or maybe somw virus. But that isn't the point.
Barrigar's point is that when civilization comes to an end and if there is nothing other than the material, then the meaning and purposes we had in this life will ultimately have no meaning and purpose. However, that does not mean that a materialist can't have meaning and purpose. They can fulfil whatever meaning and purpose they assign to thier lives, which might well include to leave this world a better place because they were here. However again, as this is a finite world and if materialism represents actual reality, then ultimately there is no meaning or purpose to our lives that aren't simply transitory.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 567 by Taq, posted 01-19-2023 3:11 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 571 by Taq, posted 01-19-2023 7:10 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 572 of 1197 (905234)
01-19-2023 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 571 by Taq
01-19-2023 7:10 PM


Taq writes:
As long as there are 2 or more humans interacting there is civilization. If there are no humans, it isn't worth asking about purpose or meaning. Even a lone human can find purpose and meaning as they learn new things and explore before their death.
Wouldn't disagree with any of that. My point was that you misunderstood what Barrigar was saying and I wanted to correct it.
Taq writes:
What's wrong with transitory meaning and purpose? Finding new meaning and purpose as the world changes around you doesn't seem like a problem.
Nothing wrong and it isn't a problem
Taq writes:
This seems to fit into a trend that I have seen within Christian apologetics. There seems to be a common thread where there can't be meaning and purpose unless it is an intrinsic property of the universe. There also can't be morality unless it is based on some objective standard. Overall, Christian apologetics seems to have a problem with the subjectivity of the human experience. I have often seen phrases like, "in atheism, there is no real purpose in life," as if a subjective purpose is not real.
I agree with all of that. I do suggest that the difference is between our meanings and purposes in this life that would no longer be meaningful with the end of civilization as opposed to having meaning that would extend beyond this existence and into the next.
Taq writes:
n my own experience as an atheist, I have become very comfortable with the subjective. I don't need the universe to have an intrinsic purpose in order to find my own purpose in life, and subjective morality works quite well for me (and for society). I am able to understand and embrace both my objective skeptical side and my very subjective and fallible human side. The human experience is one big contradiction after another, and I think it's a great ride.
That's reasonable and well put.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 571 by Taq, posted 01-19-2023 7:10 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 583 by Stile, posted 02-02-2023 12:03 PM GDR has not replied

  
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