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Author Topic:   The Power of the New Intelligent Design...
Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 586 of 1197 (905984)
02-06-2023 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 585 by Dredge
02-06-2023 9:29 AM


Dredge writes:
Life has meaning only if it's eternal. A finite life is as meaningless as meaningless can get.
Just because you can't find meaning in a finite life does not prevent others from finding meaning in a finite life. Given the ignorance you have spread on this forum, I doubt your opinion on these matters would sway anyone.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 585 by Dredge, posted 02-06-2023 9:29 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 602 of 1197 (906083)
02-06-2023 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 599 by Dredge
02-06-2023 3:41 PM


Dredge writes:
The atheist's anthem ... "We're on a road to nowhere", song by Talking Heads, 1985.
It's rather sad that you have to have to believe in an afterlife in order to have meaning. The journey is the meaning, not the destination.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 599 by Dredge, posted 02-06-2023 3:41 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 608 by Dredge, posted 02-07-2023 9:57 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(2)
Message 610 of 1197 (906112)
02-07-2023 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 608 by Dredge
02-07-2023 9:57 AM


Dredge writes:
The (atheist) journey starts from a state of meaninglessness (pre-birth/conception) and its

destination is death, which is also state of meaninglessness.
It's the journey in between that has meaning.
You seem like the worst kind of person to travel with. All you would want to do is get to the hotel at the end of the drive, missing all of the wonderful scenery and comradery along the way.
So you're saying the journey from a state of
meaninglessness back to a state of
meaninglessness has "meaning".
Absolutely. Don't your loved ones mean something to you? Doesn't the experience of walking through nature and seeing beautiful sights mean anything to you? Doesn't time spent with friends enjoying each others' company mean anything to you? Does learning new things mean anything to you?
What a horrible life you must live.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(2)
Message 628 of 1197 (906179)
02-08-2023 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 627 by Dredge
02-08-2023 11:54 AM


Re: Typical?
Dredge writes:
Atheists worship the Great False god of Equality,
Projection once again. In order to try and discredit atheists you try to make them look more like you. That says a lot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 627 by Dredge, posted 02-08-2023 11:54 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 630 by Dredge, posted 02-08-2023 12:05 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(2)
Message 636 of 1197 (906192)
02-08-2023 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 630 by Dredge
02-08-2023 12:05 PM


Re: Typical?
Dredge writes:
????????????????
You try and discredit atheists by claiming they are worshipping a god, all the while you are worshipping a god yourself. You try to take the weakness you see in yourself and project it onto others as a way of dealing with your own weakness. This is called psychological projection.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 630 by Dredge, posted 02-08-2023 12:05 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 639 by Dredge, posted 02-08-2023 1:08 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 641 of 1197 (906197)
02-08-2023 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 639 by Dredge
02-08-2023 1:08 PM


Re: Typical?
Dredge writes:
However, after giving your theory due consideration, I've come to the conclusion that it's devoid of merit. Sorry.
Then why do you try and claim that atheists are worshipping a god? What's the point of making that argument? Aren't you trying to discredit atheists with that argument?

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 653 of 1197 (906212)
02-08-2023 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 650 by Dredge
02-08-2023 5:33 PM


Re: Typical?
Dredge writes:
The thread concerns itself with intelligent design and I think the reason atheists struggle with that simple concept is that recognizing intelligent design in nature requires a certain degree of intelligence.
We don't struggle with the concept. We recognize it for what it is, a subjective opinion.
More to the point, ID can't explain the most basic observations in biology, such as the nested hierarchy and the patterns of sequence divergence in genomes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 650 by Dredge, posted 02-08-2023 5:33 PM Dredge has replied

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 Message 655 by Dredge, posted 02-08-2023 11:01 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 662 of 1197 (906240)
02-09-2023 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 660 by Dredge
02-09-2023 5:14 AM


Re: No, To Ghosts
Dredge writes:
God is perfectly capable of creating nested hierarchies
God is also perfectly capable of creating patterns other than a nested hierarchy. There is absolutely no reason why we would expect to see a nested hierarchy if species were created separately. The only reason we would expect to see a nested hierarchy is if species evolved from a common ancestor.
quote:
For, be it observed, the exception in limine to the evidence which we are about to consider, does not question that natural selection may not be able to do all that Mr. Darwin ascribes to it: it merely objects to his interpretation of the facts, because it maintains that these facts might equally well be ascribed to intelligent design. And so undoubtedly they might, if we were all childish enough to rush into a supernatural explanation whenever a natural explanation is found sufficient to account for the facts. Once admit the glaringly illogical principle that we may assume the operation of higher causes where the operation of lower ones is sufficient to explain the observed phenomena, and all our science and all our philosophy are scattered to the winds. For the law of logic which Sir William Hamilton called the law of parsimony—or the law which forbids us to assume the operation of higher causes when lower ones are found sufficient to explain the observed effects—this law constitutes the only logical barrier between science and superstition. For it is manifest that it is always possible to give a hypothetical explanation of any phenomenon whatever, by referring it immediately to the intelligence of some supernatural agent; so that the only difference between the logic of science and the logic of superstition consists in science recognising a validity in the law of parsimony which superstition disregards.
. . .
Now, since the days of Linnæus this principle has been carefully followed, and it is by its aid that the tree-like system of classification has been established. No one, even long before Darwin's days, ever dreamed of doubting that this system is in reality, what it always has been in name, a natural system. What, then, is the inference we are to draw from it? An evolutionist answers, that it is just such a system as his theory of descent would lead him to expect as a natural system. For this tree-like system is as clear an expression as anything could be of the fact that all species are bound together by the ties of genetic relationship. If all species were separately created, it is almost incredible that we should everywhere observe this progressive shading off of characters common to larger groups, into more and more specialized characters distinctive only of smaller and smaller groups. At any rate, to say the least, the law of parsimony forbids us to ascribe such effects to a supernatural cause, acting in so whimsical a manner, when the effects are precisely what we should expect to follow from the action of a highly probable natural cause.
--George Romanes, "Scientific Evidences of Organic Evolution", 1882
The Project Gutenberg eBook of The Scientific Evidences of Organic Evolution, by George J. Romanes, M.A., LL.D., F.R.S.

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 667 of 1197 (906253)
02-09-2023 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 655 by Dredge
02-08-2023 11:01 PM


Re: Typical?
Dredge writes:
Really? Do you think God is incapable of creating nested hierarchies?
A nested hierarchy is just one of billions or trillions of possible patterns of shared and derived features that God could produce. So why do we see the one pattern of trillions that just so happens to be the one pattern that common descent and evolution would produce? Why would God limit himself to a nested hierarchy when it is entirely unnecessary?

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 Message 655 by Dredge, posted 02-08-2023 11:01 PM Dredge has not replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 669 by dwise1, posted 02-09-2023 12:49 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 706 of 1197 (906706)
02-16-2023 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 692 by sensei
02-15-2023 8:08 PM


Re: Typical?
sensei writes:
What is limiting about a hierarchy?
In a nested hierarchy there are billions of different gene and feature combinations that can not exist. For example, you can not have a species that has a mixture of mammal and bird features. You can't have a creature with jellyfish and mouse genes.
A nested hierarchy severely limits what you can do which is why humans don't force their designs into a nested hierarchy, and that includes organisms that humans design.
What is unnecessary about it?
You don't need a nested hierarchy in order to get functional designs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 692 by sensei, posted 02-15-2023 8:08 PM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 710 by sensei, posted 02-16-2023 12:09 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 707 of 1197 (906707)
02-16-2023 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 694 by sensei
02-15-2023 8:30 PM


Re: Typical?
sensei writes:
You would expect a different pattern? Which one?
We would expect a non-nested hierarchy because that is what human designs fall into. There is absolutely no reason why separately created species/kinds should fall into a nested hierarchy. For example, a separately created kind could have feathers, tidal lungs, teats, and three middle ear bones. There is no reason why a separately created species would have feathers simply because it did not have three middle ear bones like mammals do. There is no reason why a species could not have flow through lungs and hair. There is no reason why a species could not have a forward facing retina and a spinal column.
The only reason we would not expect to find these mixture of features is if species evolved from common ancestors with vertical inheritance.

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 Message 694 by sensei, posted 02-15-2023 8:30 PM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 711 by sensei, posted 02-16-2023 12:15 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 708 of 1197 (906709)
02-16-2023 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 698 by sensei
02-16-2023 5:17 AM


Re: Typical?
sensei writes:
If we would generate millions of totally random DNA sequencies, the sequences can always be arranged in a nested hierarchy.
But those sequences will have a very low phylogenetic signal. This isn't the case with the genomes of species. Instead, there is a very strong phylogenetic signal. In fact, the measure of tree-like structure in DNA sequences from species is compared to random sequences as a negative control.
On top of that, there are two nested hierarchies: morphology and DNA sequence. There is absolutely no reason why these two nested hierarchies should match, but they do.
quote:
The degree to which a given phylogeny displays a unique, well-supported, objective nested hierarchy can be rigorously quantified. Several different statistical tests have been developed for determining whether a phylogeny has a subjective or objective nested hierarchy, or whether a given nested hierarchy could have been generated by a chance process instead of a genealogical process (Swofford 1996, p. 504). These tests measure the degree of "cladistic hierarchical structure" (also known as the "phylogenetic signal") in a phylogeny, and phylogenies based upon true genealogical processes give high values of hierarchical structure, whereas subjective phylogenies that have only apparent hierarchical structure (like a phylogeny of cars, for example) give low values (Archie 1989; Faith and Cranston 1991; Farris 1989; Felsenstein 1985; Hillis 1991; Hillis and Huelsenbeck 1992; Huelsenbeck et al. 2001; Klassen et al. 1991).
29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: Part 1

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 709 of 1197 (906711)
02-16-2023 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 697 by sensei
02-16-2023 5:11 AM


Re: Typical?
sensei writes:
If you take one lottery ticket out of a million, it will always be one ticket out of a million. Any other ticket would also be one out of a million, with the exact same probability.
There is only one ticket out of that million that evolution would produce, and that is a nested hierarchy. We can observe populations producing that same phylogenetic signal in real time, and it is due to common ancestry, evolution, and vertical inheritance.
quote:
Inbred mouse strains have been maintained for more than 100 years, and they are thought to be a mixture of four different mouse subspecies. Although genealogies have been established, female inbred mouse phylogenies remain unexplored. By a phylogenetic analysis of newly generated complete mitochondrial DNA sequence data in 16 strains, we show here that all common inbred strains descend from the same Mus musculus domesticus female wild ancestor, and suggest that they present a different mitochondrial evolutionary process than their wild relatives with a faster accumulation of replacement substitutions. Our data complement forthcoming results on resequencing of a group of priority strains, and they follow recent efforts of the Mouse Phenome Project to collect and make publicly available information on various strains.
mtDNA phylogeny and evolution of laboratory mouse strains - PMC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 697 by sensei, posted 02-16-2023 5:11 AM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 712 by sensei, posted 02-16-2023 12:16 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 713 of 1197 (906715)
02-16-2023 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 710 by sensei
02-16-2023 12:09 PM


Re: Typical?
sensei writes:
So because their are no elephants with bird wings or anything like that, you find that to be strong evidence for evolution?
Because we don't find numerous and obvious violations of the pattern we would expect from evolution, we take that as strong evidence for evolution. When the observations match what the theory predicts that is evidence for the theory. That's how science works.
You gonna need to do better than this.
Why?

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 714 of 1197 (906716)
02-16-2023 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 712 by sensei
02-16-2023 12:16 PM


Re: Typical?
sensei writes:
Do you understand that one ticket has the same probability as any other single ticket?
Yes, I do understand that. Do you?
There are 999,999 tickets that don't match evolution. There is only 1 ticket that does. What ticket do we see? The one that matches evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 712 by sensei, posted 02-16-2023 12:16 PM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 730 by sensei, posted 02-16-2023 2:38 PM Taq has replied

  
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