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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Tension of Faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Who made up Micahs God?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
My point was to point out what your signature says. I agree that belief in Jesus isn't necessary for that, although I do believe that it sure helps. Is that your point? You have a habit of treating your beliefs as fact - e.g. your distinction between resurrection and resurrection. It's like pulling teeth trying to get you to admit something is just your belief.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
ringo writes: You have a habit of treating your beliefs as fact - e.g. your distinction between resurrection and resurrection. It's like pulling teeth trying to get you to admit something is just your belief. It's hard to win around here. In post 422 Aussie says this:
Aussie writes:
To which I replied in 427:
I'm really sorry, but your personal beliefs about points made of someone else's personal beliefs add no value at all to anything! You kept repeating lines such as "It is my belief..." "I think that..." "I understand this way..." "Understanding through certain lenses..." "Keys to understanding..." "Possibly there was..."GDR writes: But what else do you expect. I don't have knowledge in the same sense that I know that the sun is out today. I make a point of saying that "I believe" or "I think" to make the point that I am not claiming absolute knowledge. It is the Christian faith. I try to present my rationale as best I can for why I believe as I do but I can’t do better than that. In one sense it is no different than the atheist who believes there is nothing beyond the material. They can’t have absolute knowledge of that either, as the atheists that I have had discussions with are honest enough to point out, and yet it seems you expect me to be less honest. As far as the debate about the use of resurrection it is really clear in the Bible that what happened to Jesus was quite distinct from what happened to Lazarus and I think you said that you agreed with that. My signature is simply a quote from the Bible. It isn't me making an absolute statement.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
You insisted that Lazarus was not resurrected. I agreed that there were differences between his resurrection and Jesus' - but a resurrection is still a resurrection.
As far as the debate about the use of resurrection it is really clear in the Bible that what happened to Jesus was quite distinct from what happened to Lazarus and I think you said that you agreed with that. GDR writes:
It's you turning a minor observation on my part into a debate, the same as you did with the word resurrection. You could have just said, "Yes, you're right."
My signature is simply a quote from the Bible. It isn't me making an absolute statement.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: I try to present my rationale as best I can for why I believe as I do but I can’t do better than that. In one sense it is no different than the atheist who believes there is nothing beyond the material. They can’t have absolute knowledge of that either, as the atheists that I have had discussions with are honest enough to point out, I think you need to be clear about what atheists are saying. There's no equivalence in an atheist saying that they can't prove that god doesn't exist, or that there's nothing that isn't simply natural - that's a simple statement of objective fact - and you believing in a risen Christ. No atheist would agree that there was even a theoretical chance that Christ rose from the dead. Nope, that for you to prove. You have an active belief in something, atheists just don't.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
ringo writes:
I simply assumed you were trying to make the same point that Aussie was here.
You insisted that Lazarus was not resurrected. I agreed that there were differences between his resurrection and Jesus' - but a resurrection is still a resurrection.Aussie writes: o purely in terms of story telling, Lazarus seems like an even more dramatic resurrection. I guess that wasn't your point so we are in agreement.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: Who made up Micahs God?
The author or more likely the authors, editor and redactors of Micah.
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
An argument could be made, based on GDRs perspective, that one cannot believe in the Nicene Creed with a clear conscience while also believing that every aspect of God mentioned in the Bible was made up.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes: Yet at least you are honest enough to admit that you are an atheist. No atheist would agree that there was even a theoretical chance that Christ rose from the dead. Nope, that for you to prove.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes:
Essentially I agree. The only point I’d make is that I don’t see how you can make the statement that atheists don’t believe that there is even a theoretical chance that Christ rose from the dead. However I’ll let you speak for the atheists. I think you need to be clear about what atheists are saying.There's no equivalence in an atheist saying that they can't prove that god doesn't exist, or that there's nothing that isn't simply natural - that's a simple statement of objective fact - and you believing in a risen Christ. No atheist would agree that there was even a theoretical chance that Christ rose from the dead. Nope, that for you to prove. You have an active belief in something, atheists just don't. Yes, it is by faith that I believe that the NT writers were correct when they wrote that Jesus rose from the dead. I also agree that it is an add on to the argument between basic theism or even deism and materialism or atheism. It is largely what differentiates Christianity from other theistic religions.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: An argument could be made, based on GDRs perspective, that one cannot believe in the Nicene Creed with a clear conscience while also believing that every aspect of God mentioned in the Bible was made up. Only a very sill sophomoric argument; certainly not an argument worth much consideration. But that is also totally irrelevant; what does the actual evidence show? Does the God in Genesis 1 have the same characteristics as the God in Genesis 2&3? Does all of the physical evidence show that there was never a Biblical Flood or Special Creation or Exodus or Conquest of Canaan? Does the tale of Paul's encounter change with every retelling? Does the Great Commission evolve with every telling? Do the two creation accounts contradict one another both by order of creation as well as by method? Does the physical reality show the both creation accounts are simply factually false? The evidence is overwhelming that the Bible is a human creation with absolutely no single point of view, no consistency and no single purpose. But it is also totally irrelevant. People can believe in things that are not based on fact, reality, reason, logic or even common sense. The people who wrote the Bible stories were under the very same handicaps we experience; they were trying to explain what THEY believed. If I believe in the Nicene Creed, even if there is no God, no Holy Spirit, Jesus never existed, there is no life after death or judgement or salvation; I still believe in the Nicene Creed. It really is that simple.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
In order to understand the OT it has to be done through the lens of what Jesus taught. That sucks for the pre-Jesus Jews who thought they were God's chosen people but couldn't even get the whole story so were doomed to misunderstand it. The Old Testament has the main purpose of preparing the Jews (and the entire world for that matter) for the Messiah. It's full of prophecy of the Messiah, and it was the Jews who understood their scriptures who most readily recognized him when He came. The version of Judaism that leaves out the Messiah, that is still praccticed by the Jews, is a mere shell of what God intended.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: Yet at least you are honest enough to admit that you are an atheist. This sentence shows all sorts of hidden prejudice. What is the crime that I am admitting to? And why is it some form of honesty to do it? Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The allusion was not directed at you specifically.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Your argument only holds weight if Christianity is based on what we do versus what we believe.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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