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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9539
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 10 of 1540 (820332)
09-19-2017 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
09-19-2017 3:16 AM


Faith writes:
It's SO true, I don't WANT anybody to go to Hell, but if I believe God has decreed it I can't argue with God, and all I can do is pray that God will save those I care about.
Congratualtions, you found a personal rationalisation for a really repulsive belief; that billions even trillions of people will be condemned to everalsting torture of an unimaginative kind simply because they were born in the wrong place and to the wrong parents.
That must make you feel so much better.
And you're praying for your friends so that god will change his mind just for them? That goes down as one of the craziest things you've said.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 09-19-2017 3:16 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Faith, posted 09-19-2017 10:10 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 330 by foreveryoung, posted 10-15-2017 7:08 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9539
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 13 of 1540 (820337)
09-19-2017 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Faith
09-19-2017 10:10 AM


Faith writes:
The reality is that people go to Hell for their sins
To be clear, you believe that people who don't belive the same things as you are going to hell don't you?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Faith, posted 09-19-2017 10:10 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9539
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 22 of 1540 (820390)
09-20-2017 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Faith
09-19-2017 5:30 PM


Re: Religion Isn't Necessary for Morality
You didn't answer my question, do you believe that people that don't believe the same things as you are going to hell?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 09-19-2017 5:30 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 3:58 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9539
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 25 of 1540 (820395)
09-20-2017 4:10 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
09-20-2017 3:58 AM


Re: Religion Isn't Necessary for Morality
Faith writes:
I believe you have to put all your trust in Jesus as the only salvation from Hell. No other religion offers a Savior or salvation from Hell. They believe in various versions of hell but they have no salvation from them.
That's a very evasive answer.
I take it then that the minimum requirement is to be a baptised Christian?
Catholics trust in Jesus yet you denounce them. Are they going to hell?
Is GDR going to hell?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 3:58 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 4:13 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9539
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 27 of 1540 (820399)
09-20-2017 4:35 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Faith
09-20-2017 4:13 AM


Re: Religion Isn't Necessary for Morality
Faith writes:
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life".
There's about 7.5bn people on the planet and about 2.2bn are Christians. Let's say that all of them pass your test - so that's a large overestimate. That means that 70% of the people alive today are going to hell simply because they were born in the wrong country or to the wrong parents. 5bn people tortured in hell for eternity.
That's some git of a god you've got there, Faith.
Something like 107bn people have ever lived. A big chunk of those will have been alive before Christianity was invented and it took a few thousand years to grow, so I'd say 85 billion people in hell to date as a very conservative guess, for no fault of their own.
God 'so loved the world' that he comdemned almost all of his creation to everalsting torture? Does that actually make sense to you?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 4:13 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 4:47 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 29 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 5:23 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 33 by Diomedes, posted 09-20-2017 9:34 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9539
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 30 of 1540 (820406)
09-20-2017 5:31 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Faith
09-20-2017 4:47 AM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
Faith writes:
As I understand the character of God from the Bible those who know the most have the most responsibility, so that wherever people have truly not heard the gospel I expect a lot more mercy from God than toward those who have heard it and reject it. And the Bible also teaches that there are people everywhere who intuitively understand the Moral Law and obey it, so they will certainly receive mercy.
Right so now there are grades of hell? Some of the eternal torture is less than for others?
You wouldn't be making stuff up again would you?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 4:47 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 5:46 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9539
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 37 of 1540 (820445)
09-20-2017 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Faith
09-20-2017 4:47 AM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
Faith writes:
Jesus didn't come to send people to Hell but to save them from Hell. If He hadn't come people would have been going to Hell all over the world because there was no Savior.
And you don't think that this is the most bizarre and evil idea that has ever been thought?
God creates man to live a short and brutal life ending in eternal torture. After a few thousand years of hell filling up he has second thoughts and sends his son to earth to be killed in order to save a small percentage of the population allowing the remaining billions to enjoy eternal torture regardless of how decently they live their lives.
It's utterly preposterous.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 4:47 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by NoNukes, posted 09-20-2017 6:06 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 09-21-2017 1:06 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9539
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 39 of 1540 (820449)
09-20-2017 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by NoNukes
09-20-2017 6:06 PM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
NoNukes writes:
I think you can still make a logical conundrum out of all this, but you haven't done that yet.
There's really not much point trying much harder because you all have different excuses as to why it all hangs together despite it's obvious nonsenses.
You don't accept the omni-god so your particular get-out-of-hell card is that god didn't forsee The Fall, because of course if he had, the the creation was an error. etc etc.
Others who believe in this archane system believe something quite different, it's like nailing blancmange to the ceiling.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by NoNukes, posted 09-20-2017 6:06 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by NoNukes, posted 09-20-2017 9:37 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9539
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 43 of 1540 (820456)
09-21-2017 2:07 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by NoNukes
09-20-2017 9:37 PM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
NoNukes writes:
That is your excuse for posting shite? Very well.
And that's your excuse for not explaining how your personal version of god can be the Christian God whilst not having a clue what he's doing. Ok.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by NoNukes, posted 09-20-2017 9:37 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by NoNukes, posted 09-21-2017 4:34 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9539
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 44 of 1540 (820457)
09-21-2017 2:26 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Faith
09-21-2017 1:06 AM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
Faith writes:
As I've said many times, and NN said the same above, God did not CREATE the current condition of mankind, it is the result of our disobedience of God.
In you belief system the all seeing, all knowing, all loving, all powerful being created two vulnerable innocents who were then tricked by a snake (which god had also created) into eating an apple (which god had created) which gave them knowledge.
Despite this being like putting a child into a room with a chocolate bar and wonder why the toddler eat it he gets so pissed that he condemns all their progeny to everlasting torture. That's getting on for 100 billion people to date in hell for something their parents did.
And what's god's response? He sends his 'son' to be killed for Adam's 'sin' which in some inexplicable way attones for it. But not fully, oh no, only for a few people who happen to live in a part of the world where this Jesus guy is known and only if they grovel in admiration of this psychopath.
He's not a clever or nice god is he? And it's not a very believable story is it?
And sending Jesus to be our Savior was no "second thought," it was planned from the beginning.
He fucking planned it? Wow, what a total bastard.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 09-21-2017 1:06 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 09-21-2017 3:28 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9539
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 46 of 1540 (820460)
09-21-2017 4:26 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Faith
09-21-2017 3:28 AM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
Faith writes:
Scripture tells us Jesus came to "give beauty for ashes" (Isaiah 61:3), while over and over people here turn all the beauty into ashes, the uglier the ashes and the words used to describe them the better it seems. It never fails.
If this is supposed to be an answer to my post, I'm not seeing it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 09-21-2017 3:28 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9539
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 49 of 1540 (820463)
09-21-2017 5:44 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by NoNukes
09-21-2017 4:34 AM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
NoNuke writes:
I conclude I am right,
Congratulations! How very like Faith.
You have no reason for posting absolute crap.
And you feel under no obligation to say why. Interesting.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by NoNukes, posted 09-21-2017 4:34 AM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Percy, posted 09-21-2017 7:07 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9539
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 51 of 1540 (820466)
09-21-2017 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Percy
09-21-2017 7:07 AM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
Percy writes:
I think when NoNukes said that you might have a case ("you can still make a logical conundrum out of all this") that he thought you should tighten up your arguments and logic, for example, be more accurate about where those Christian concepts of hell and damnation come from, something more like a legal brief, but I'm not sure why he feels this way.
Yes, he would like to draw me into biblical literary criticism which I'm simply not interesred in; it's more important that those who believe in these things actually justify what they believe and the justification is not in the bible stories, it's in the logic of their belief in them. eg how can you believe in a loving god that condems 90% of all humanity to everlasting torture for something a distant parent allegedly did?
The problem here is that I'm responding to Faith's beliefs which are, apparently, very different to Nuke's. Christians believe very different things based on the same stories. I can't argue with him based on what Faith believes. His beef is not with me playing back Faith's beliefs, it's with Faith.
If he'd like to display his belief based on this damnable book, I'll happily have a pop at that, but until he does, it's moot.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Percy, posted 09-21-2017 7:07 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Phat, posted 09-21-2017 9:56 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9539
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 59 of 1540 (820512)
09-21-2017 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by NoNukes
09-21-2017 5:37 PM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
NN writes:
I made my comment because almost nothing about Tangle's criticism was actually accurate. A bad argument is a bad argument.[...]Maybe I will do that if he actually makes an argument. I have done so in the past. But I am not going to make up arguments for him and then respond to that.
And yet you continue to butt into a discussion I'm having with Faith calling it 'a bad argument', 'crap' and not even an argument, without actually saying why; in fact refusing to say why.
Methinks the lady doth protest too much. Like I say, interesting, very interesting. I think a nerve has been touched.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by NoNukes, posted 09-21-2017 5:37 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9539
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 61 of 1540 (820522)
09-22-2017 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by kbertsche
09-21-2017 5:42 PM


KB writes:
When a doctor gives a terminal diagnosis to a patient, it's not because he WANTS them to die, but because they need to know the truth. What the doctor WANTS is irrelevant. For some reason, most atheists and agnostics can't see that our position is analogous to the doctor's.
Don't be silly, we know that that Faith doesn't want her friends to go to hell. If she thought that, they are very unlikely to be her friends. (She often though derives a lot of satisfaction from telling her opponants here that we're heading that way.)
She now seems happy that she's found a neat little linguistic way over the problem of feeling bad about her friends - who, presumably, are in every other way except in believing something different to her are decent people - are going to be tortured by her god forever and ever, amen.
She can feel better knowing that it's not her fault, don't shoot the messenger. The point we're discussing is about whether the message itself makes any kind of sense and of course it doesn't. The message is at its very best a childish fantasy and horror story.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by kbertsche, posted 09-21-2017 5:42 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Faith, posted 09-22-2017 2:11 AM Tangle has seen this message but not replied
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 09-22-2017 3:42 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 68 by kbertsche, posted 09-22-2017 11:33 AM Tangle has replied

  
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