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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 72 of 1540 (820541)
09-22-2017 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Faith
09-22-2017 2:11 AM


There are very few people here I'd like to see in Hell either. A couple perhaps.
That is a truly mostrous thing to say Faith. Just horrifying to hear come from the mouth of a non-psychopathic human being. You would like to see a human writhe in eternal agony? Would you look on in smug satisfaction that you had been proved right all along? Is this truly in your heart? Do your words mean anything?
Which atheist here have you heard say anything as immorally animalistic as this? This is a serious question, please answer me! I want you to show me where a single one of the "godless atheists" here have ever spoken that way to you. Can you even imagine it?
There are very few christians here I would like to see thrown to the lions. A couple perhaps.
There are very few Chrisitans here I would like to see slowly burned alive at the stake. A couple perhaps.
Despite our great differences of opinion I would not wish the smallest harm on you Faith. I wish you a long and fullfilled life despite what I believe to be astounding desusion on your part. Where is your moral compass here?
Edited by Aussie, : No reason given.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Faith, posted 09-22-2017 2:11 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Faith, posted 09-22-2017 12:48 PM Aussie has replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 77 of 1540 (820546)
09-22-2017 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Faith
09-22-2017 12:48 PM


The couple I have in mind regularly blaspheme God way beyond normal atheism...
So these atheists you are thinking of... you said you would LIKE to see them being tortured? Did you mean what you said? Did your words have meaning? Please answer.
Is there anyone at all you yourself think might deserve Hell? Mass murderers?
I think there is a primal, animalistic part in all of us that wants to lash out at injustice and brutality. But modern societies have in large part morally evolved past this kind of animalistic vengeance of centuries past. Brutal vengeance as commanded in the OT, or expressed in the sacrifice of Christ and the eternal suffering of the Lake of Fire is not a component of the modern penal code for good and justifiable reasons.
And I would like to request again that you give at least one example of a single atheist that has wished harm to you here on this forum. If you are unable, I think it will be instructive of where moral lines are actually drawn between believers and non-believers. I mean, I can think of a variety of reasons to despise the Biblical moral code, and I find it truly fascinating that you publically wish torture on those who vocally oppose torture.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Faith, posted 09-22-2017 12:48 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 09-22-2017 1:20 PM Aussie has replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 78 of 1540 (820547)
09-22-2017 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Faith
09-22-2017 1:04 PM


It's hopeless, KB. Doesn't matter what a Christian says these days, they in their infinite wisdom are going to judge us morally deficient.
Well we are certainly not wanting to watch you guys get tortured!

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Faith, posted 09-22-2017 1:04 PM Faith has not replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 83 of 1540 (820553)
09-22-2017 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Faith
09-22-2017 1:20 PM


Oh good grief. The expression "like to see them in Hell" doesn't mean I want to watch anyone be tortured, it means I think there may be a couple here who in my opinion rightly deserve punishment. Only two. I wouldn't name names.
When you say you would like to see people being tortured, I take you at your word that you mean that. Otherwise your words have no meaning. This is not a fine pedantic point. I hold you morally accountable for the brutality of your words; it's not a point I think others reading you should brush over lightly. I'm not accusing you personally of this kind of psychopathy...I doubt you are. The God you want us to grovel before most certainly is as he is descibed throughout the Bible, and your words drip venom.
Why does just punishment have to be a "lashing out" or "animalistic vengeance?" It should be a solemn affair based on clear evidence that it is deserved, and executed with the desire that the person repent and ultimately be saved.
A punishment that fits the crime is not what I am arguing against. But infinite torture for a finite crime; for example, being a Hindu or a Buddist in your opinion, is so far out of proportion as to be almost unimaginable to most moral agencies.
Can I remind you to show whare a single atheist here has wished any harm on you to any extent? How about harm to any other Christian?

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 09-22-2017 1:20 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 09-22-2017 1:38 PM Aussie has replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 84 of 1540 (820554)
09-22-2017 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Faith
09-22-2017 1:24 PM


... but what does it matter what I say?
"Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh..."
Outside words reveal inside hearts. You are morally accountable for them.
Unless your words mean nothing.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 09-22-2017 1:24 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-22-2017 1:54 PM Aussie has not replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 86 of 1540 (820556)
09-22-2017 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Faith
09-22-2017 1:38 PM


There are very few people here I'd like to see in Hell either. A couple perhaps.
But...
I DID NOT SAY I WOULD LIKE TO SEE ANYONE TORTURED.
Yes you did. Right then, remember? When you said you would.
There are lots of places in the Bible that describe what you all are doing, finding fault with someone who is not at fault, lying in wait to catch someone out for some innocent statement.
We are holding you morally accountable for the words coming out of your mouth. You are all alone again, justifying the use of torture, like a creature out of the Dark Ages, while the rest of us are suggesting this is not a morally acceptable proposition.
Hindus and Buddhists are not evil because they are Hindus and Buddhists! How and why do I find myself suggesting to you that they should NOT be tortured? It almost makes me want to type in ALL CAPS at you!
Your words remind me of the Proverb...Is it chapter 1? I can't remember...
"If they say, Come with us, let us lie in wait for blood, let us lurk privily for the innocent without cause..."
No Faith. I will not join you.
Edited by Aussie, : No reason given.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 09-22-2017 1:38 PM Faith has not replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 91 of 1540 (820565)
09-22-2017 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Phat
09-22-2017 5:03 PM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
Logically, God wouldnt particularly want creatures living forever that wanted nothing to do with Him.
Hey Phat! I'm sorry, I know you weren't talking to me, but is it logical that the best other option to me not wanting to spend time with Him is...Him burning me in eternal flame?
What about a different option? Maybe for all those who choose not to be with Him, perhaps they just die? Eternal oblivion as if we never existed? Like we were before we were born?
I mean, why is eternal suffering the best option? It just seems to cut across that gorgeous Psalm where it says "His mercies are new every morning."
Unless you choose not to follow Him. Then watch out.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Phat, posted 09-22-2017 5:03 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Phat, posted 09-23-2017 12:38 AM Aussie has not replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 351 of 1540 (821965)
10-16-2017 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 327 by Percy
10-14-2017 3:13 PM


Re: Carry on without me
So in other words, no premise stated by Faith can be questioned. You're Trumpian in your megalomania.
The gleeful persecution Faith inflicts on the forum non-believers is jaw-dropping. It makes me happy she is here and not actually in charge of church doctrine during the Inquisition. When others just like her were actually in charge.
Of course had she been back there she would have been held in silence by the men who comprised the clergy.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by Percy, posted 10-14-2017 3:13 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 384 of 1540 (822165)
10-20-2017 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 375 by GDR
10-19-2017 2:19 PM


Re: Evolving theology
Do you see any differences in the Biblical account of the resurrection of Jesus and Lazarus being brought back to life?
One noticeable difference between Jesus' resurrection vs. Lazarus' is that Lazarus was dead even longer than Jesus...to the point they were concerned about the smell of decomposition. He was dead four days as opposed to Jesus' two and a half days.
So purely in terms of story telling, Lazarus seems like an even more dramatic resurrection.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 375 by GDR, posted 10-19-2017 2:19 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 387 by GDR, posted 10-21-2017 1:10 PM Aussie has replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 399 of 1540 (822337)
10-23-2017 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 387 by GDR
10-21-2017 1:10 PM


Re: Evolving theology
Lazarus experienced a resuscitation. He later died the same death that all of us experience. There is no account of Lazarus' revival being called a resurrection.
There is no account of Lazarus' revival being called a resuscitation either, sooooo...your point seems to have a markedly absurd quality about it.
Many Jews at the time believed in a resurrection at some point in the future when Yahweh would raise up the faithful to be with Him. Thus the metaphorical, (at least I believe it was metaphorical), telling of the the bodies of the saints rising from the dead and leaving their tombs. Matthew understood that this was not a simple case of bringing someone back to life, but a case of bringing someone back to a new form of life, or the new Adam of a renewed world. This is also consistent with the entire NT.
Whoah! Wait a minute... The saints coming out of their graves at Jesus' death is only metaphorical? Matt 27:51 "At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people."
That is just a metaphor? Really? So was the veil being rent in two also a metaphor? Because that appears in the exact same tiny cluster of verses. Please answer. Was Judas hanging himself also metaphorical? It's in the same chapter. What about Jesus' conversation with Pilate? What about His death? Was the securing and guarding of the tomb by the Roman soldiers a metaphor? This is an important point. Why did you pick this one thing out of one chapter and suddenly decide it doesn't mean what it clearly says?

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 387 by GDR, posted 10-21-2017 1:10 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 415 by GDR, posted 10-31-2017 11:01 AM Aussie has replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 418 of 1540 (822687)
10-31-2017 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 415 by GDR
10-31-2017 11:01 AM


Re: Evolving theology
Matthew is saying that because of the resurrection of Jesus it meant that the saints had been raised with Jesus. It is Matthews attempt at understanding what the resurrection of Jesus meant to and for his Jewish readers.
Could you be a little more specific for me please? I'm not trying to be pedantic, but I think this is an important point in terms of how we approach Scripture.
By "Matthew's attempt at..." do you mean "Matthew deliberately inserted a solitary metaphor right in the middle of an otherwise purely factual account", or by "Matthew's attempt at..." do you mean in the sense of "Matthew did his best but got it wrong here." ?
The Jews had believed that God could only be met behind the veil behind which was the holy of holies in the Temple, and then only by the chief priest. Matthew is saying that God was now not just accessible to the chief priest but was accessible to all.
I get the typology behind the rending of the veil as God opening the way for believers to approach the formerly off-limits Holy of Holies, and I'm surprised you didn't mention it was rent from top to bottom, usually said to signify that is was God-toward-man. But this whole act is steeped in type and shadow and metaphor, whereas it seems to be a reasonably straighforward statement following that states in essence, "After this, the graves opened and many of the dead saints came out alive."
Could you please explain your approach to interpreting Scriptural metaphor vs, Scripture as fact?
Edited by Aussie, : No reason given.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by GDR, posted 10-31-2017 11:01 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 420 by GDR, posted 10-31-2017 10:38 PM Aussie has replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


(2)
Message 422 of 1540 (822804)
11-01-2017 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 420 by GDR
10-31-2017 10:38 PM


Re: Evolving theology
Your post did not in any way address my questions though.
It is my belief that Matthew is telling his Jewish readers what the resurrection means to them and told in the way things were usually told in that day and that culture. His point was that as Jesus was resurrected this is what it means. His view point was that it meant that God was accessible to everyone and that death had been defeated and that physical death is not the end.
I'm really sorry, but your personal beliefs about points made of someone else's personal beliefs add no value at all to anything! You kept repeating lines such as "It is my belief..." "I think that..." "I understand this way..." "Understanding through certain lenses..." "Keys to understanding..." "Possibly there was..."
I truly get where you are coming from, but do you see from my perspective that this is deeply unsatisfying? You certainly have to have your understanding of Scripture, the problem is that every believer has their own understanding of Scripture. It reminds me of that verse, I don't remember where it it, "If the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself for battle?"
The "Sound" that we get from Scripture is so incredibly uncertain that it allows for hundreds of thousands of "personal understandings" that are mutually exclusive, with Christians running in every imaginable direction, yelling "Not true Christians" to the vast majority of the other believers. The uncertainty is to such a high degree that despite the account of Jesus' Resurrection, the only remaining observable Body of Christ has been torn into ten thousand tiny denominational pieces by the believers themselves. So what you personally believe is of no personal interest to me.
What I asked is, independent of you just making stuff up because it sounds good inside your own head, was there a specific methodology that you used to conclude that the seemingly straightforward and factual accounting of graves being opened, and long dead saints being resurrected out of them to be seen by many is simply metaphor, while the stone rolled away is literal?
I'm really not trying to be a smart ass, but I spent my entire childhood and youth listening to people make shit up about the Bible, and I would genuinely love to see someone be brave enough to apply some rigor to their methodology. Maybe you?

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 420 by GDR, posted 10-31-2017 10:38 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 427 by GDR, posted 11-01-2017 5:17 PM Aussie has not replied

  
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