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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 1540 (820447)
09-20-2017 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Tangle
09-20-2017 5:30 PM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
God creates man to live a short and brutal life ending in eternal torture.
Actually, that is not the story in Genesis. Genesis says that man was created to live eternally, but due to his own screw-ups lost his unending life on earth. Where Hell came from really is not discussed in Genesis or much of anywhere else in the Bible.
I think you can still make a logical conundrum out of all this, but you haven't done that yet.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Tangle, posted 09-20-2017 5:30 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Tangle, posted 09-20-2017 6:32 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 42 by PaulK, posted 09-21-2017 1:27 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 55 by ringo, posted 09-21-2017 11:51 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 1540 (820452)
09-20-2017 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Tangle
09-20-2017 6:32 PM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
There's really not much point trying much harder
That is your excuse for posting shite? Very well.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Tangle, posted 09-20-2017 6:32 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Tangle, posted 09-21-2017 2:07 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 1540 (820461)
09-21-2017 4:34 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Tangle
09-21-2017 2:07 AM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
And that's your excuse for not explaining how your personal version of god can be the Christian God whilst not having a clue what he's doing. Ok.
So given your deflection, I conclude I am right, You have no reason for posting absolute crap.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Tangle, posted 09-21-2017 2:07 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Tangle, posted 09-21-2017 5:44 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 1540 (820462)
09-21-2017 4:37 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by PaulK
09-21-2017 1:27 AM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
Almost, you forget that in Genesis Man was created to be a dumb gardener.
I reviewed the context of my comment. There is a considerable amount of story in Genesis that I did not mention. None of it appears to be essential to my comment to Tangle that his remarks did not match the story.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by PaulK, posted 09-21-2017 1:27 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by PaulK, posted 09-21-2017 10:06 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 1540 (820510)
09-21-2017 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Percy
09-21-2017 7:07 AM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
that he thought you should tighten up your arguments and logic, for example, be more accurate about where those Christian concepts of hell and damnation come from, something more like a legal brief, but I'm not sure why he feels this way.
I made my comment because almost nothing about Tangle's criticism was actually accurate. A bad argument is a bad argument.
I do acknowledge that many Christian beliefs can be questioned in a rational manner, however just making crap up is not rational. I believe I can point that out without having a responsibility to respond to arguments no one has even made.
Instead of objecting to what you say on procedural grounds I'd like to see him address your actual arguments.
Maybe I will do that if he actually makes an argument. I have done so in the past. But I am not going to make up arguments for him and then respond to that.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Percy, posted 09-21-2017 7:07 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Tangle, posted 09-21-2017 5:51 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 65 by Percy, posted 09-22-2017 7:36 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 1540 (820532)
09-22-2017 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Percy
09-22-2017 7:36 AM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
I don't understand why you're saying "nothing...was actually accurate."
I commented about a specific statement by Tangle. That statement was totally inaccurate, and so far I have heard nothing but excuses about why he does not have to do better.
I even acknowledged that there were better arguments to be made. I doubt either you are he would tolerate the same kind of nonsense from a creationist. But apparently when folks you agree with make a bad argument, that's just fine with you.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Percy, posted 09-22-2017 7:36 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Tangle, posted 09-22-2017 11:06 AM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 92 by Percy, posted 09-22-2017 5:57 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 1540 (820619)
09-24-2017 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Phat
09-24-2017 3:57 PM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
"Sure there is. Ever heard of complementary? Male and Female are a type and shadow of God and humans. We symbolically marry Him, as His Bride."
What understanding is gained by trying to model your relationship with Christ as spousal? I have heard of this before, but I find the idea absolutely bizarre.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Phat, posted 09-24-2017 3:57 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by kbertsche, posted 09-25-2017 4:31 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 125 of 1540 (821061)
10-01-2017 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by PaulK
10-01-2017 4:55 PM


Paulk writes:
It's your sophistry.
Choosing or not choosing Christ certainly affects our salvation.
Sophistry indeed. Particularly when you spread a layer of Calvinism on top of it.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by PaulK, posted 10-01-2017 4:55 PM PaulK has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 140 of 1540 (821109)
10-02-2017 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by jar
10-02-2017 12:37 PM


Re: where the tension lies
How is my and many other people pointing out that the story simply does not say what Biblical Christians claim it says careless?
I think Phat was calling himself careless. Maybe that is an explanation for some of the more silly things Phat posts. This part of his morning routine is simply not important enough to get right.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by jar, posted 10-02-2017 12:37 PM jar has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 212 of 1540 (821531)
10-09-2017 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by kbertsche
10-08-2017 11:16 PM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
"Again, I see this apparent contradiction between God's choice and our free will as analogous to wave-particle duality"
This appears to be short for saying, "I don't understand how this logical impossibility exists, but I'm going to accept it".
Calvinism is an unfortunate bit of doctrine, which does, in my opinion, have the fact of excusing behavior from God that we would never tolerate from another human. And there are certainly Biblical verses that are difficult to accept in light of the doctrine. Not sure why it is so popular.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by kbertsche, posted 10-08-2017 11:16 PM kbertsche has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by jar, posted 10-09-2017 6:48 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 535 of 1540 (823322)
11-09-2017 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 523 by Percy
11-08-2017 3:54 PM


Re: How Faith is based on evidence and yet a gift
But someone just writing that there's a broken window with a baseball on the floor is not evidence.
You don't consider, for example, newspaper articles described contemporary events to be evidence? Because that kind of evidence is frequently cited here. Yet your current description does not distinguish the Gospel According to Luke, from a story in the Wall Street Journal. Perhaps a little more care in explaining why Bible stories are not evidence, or at least are not reliable evidence may be in order.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 523 by Percy, posted 11-08-2017 3:54 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 538 by PaulK, posted 11-09-2017 11:12 AM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 557 by Percy, posted 11-10-2017 10:07 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 575 of 1540 (823497)
11-10-2017 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 557 by Percy
11-10-2017 10:07 AM


Re: How Faith is based on evidence and yet a gift
All I'm really saying is that there's a difference between original evidence and descriptions of the original evidence. Original evidence is all that really counts.
Is that how you evaluate, for example, claims that Jews were tortured during World War 2? Do you think it is important that your descendants require the same kind of original evidence?
I think you are expressing a hard line that nobody actually uses for anything and insisting that we apply it to the Bible when we don't apply it to anything else. There is a difference between the accounts of Jesus ministry, his death, and his resurrection, and a story of Lincoln's life and death, but I sincerely doubt that you have accepted one account and rejected the other account based on anything like the line of reasoning you've used here.
We read and trust the WSJ article because the WSJ has a long history of reliable and accurate reporting, and there is corroborating reporting from equally reliable sources
I am personally suspicious of stories I read in the WSJ. I think there is a tendency to give the stories in our modern publications more credence primarily because they are describing ordinary events. If I read an article in the WSJ or Scientific American about a perpetual motion machine, I would be extremely skeptical.
In short, the stories in the Bible are descriptions of extraordinary events, and you rightly or wrongly require stronger evidence before you will believe them. I believe that such behavior is completely logical.
A WSJ article about Trump's meetings in Asia? That's information.
I have no idea what point this statement makes. Is there something more here than an expression that you would accept such an account as factual? Should someone reading the same story 1000 years from now make the same assumptions that you make about the stories credibility, or would he simply say that the story is a statement of what people of that past millennium believed to be true?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 557 by Percy, posted 11-10-2017 10:07 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 589 by Percy, posted 11-12-2017 9:51 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 810 of 1540 (823970)
11-20-2017 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 806 by Phat
11-20-2017 12:58 PM


Re: Beware Censorship
CONCLUSION: Be diligent in forming a reply, use reasoned argumentation and evidence if available, be honest, and let the words speak for themselves.
Excellent advice, Phat.
One thing I can point out is that most of the arguments in the New Testament are intended to reinforce the belief of those who already believe. No one should be surprised when simply repeating such arguments does not stand up to close, skeptical, scrutiny.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 806 by Phat, posted 11-20-2017 12:58 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 1446 of 1540 (826257)
12-27-2017 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1442 by Percy
12-27-2017 12:15 PM


Re: Does True Christian Faith Mean Loving All?
Thanks for your concern. I'm fine. If repenting means hating I don't want any part of it. You don't seem to realize what a horrible advertisement for Christianity you are.
For what it's worth, I am surrounded by Christians on a daily basis. I have yet to hear any of them say things like, "I hate you all." They tend to pray for people they consider to be sinners. Yes, there are churches where the opposite is taught. Maybe Faith is from that tradition.
I know that living a Godly life means loving your fellow man.
This is preached in churches across the country every week. The idea that your neighbors are only the other folk in the same pew as you on Sunday is so far from Christlike as to be unrecognizable.
Someone needs to stop "testi-lying".
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1442 by Percy, posted 12-27-2017 12:15 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 1517 of 1540 (826981)
01-15-2018 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1502 by New Cat's Eye
01-14-2018 9:07 AM


Re: Tension from Faith
Hate is an emotion held by a person. Only you, yourself, know what emotions you're feeling.
This statement borders on being silly. We can infer your emotions from your speech, facial expressions, and your actions. Now those methods may not be 100% accurate, but those are fairly reliable indicators. People are more than justified in drawing conclusions from those external indicators.
On the other hand, folks deceive themselves all of the time, and might well not understand that they are hateful.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1502 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-14-2018 9:07 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
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