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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
PaulK
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Posts: 17856
Joined: 01-10-2003
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(1)
Message 3 of 1540 (820320)
09-19-2017 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
09-19-2017 3:16 AM


So presumably you should be equally glad when Islamists follow their religion - as you understand it - and persecute and kill non-Muslims ?
I find that the essay seems to be an example of intellectual dissonance, a rationalisation of the moral flaws of religion. Evil is seen as a necessary part, and submission to that evil a worthy sacrifice. An idea I find quite chilling.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 09-19-2017 3:16 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by RAZD, posted 09-19-2017 9:21 AM PaulK has not replied
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 09-19-2017 9:56 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
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Posts: 17856
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 9 of 1540 (820330)
09-19-2017 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
09-19-2017 9:10 AM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
quote:
Your critics have said that you are a poor example of a poster girl for Christianity because of your beliefs regarding Islam and Muslims
Oh, no that's just a symptom. Even Faith's bigotry - which is hardly restricted to Muslims - and her love of conspiracy theories (likewise) are hardly the worst thing about her.

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PaulK
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Posts: 17856
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 17 of 1540 (820361)
09-19-2017 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
09-19-2017 9:56 AM


quote:
It is certainly the same mindset, uncompromising devotion to their religion, and I wish the writer of the essay had addressed it. But of course there is nothing actually dangerous in either Judaism or Christianity as there is in Islam, just offended feelings and moral indignation, whereas Islam does prescribe killing people and despite all the liberal denials is doing it quite frequently these days.
The Old Testament has an awful lot of killing in it - that's even part of the essay. If Judaism isn't dangerous it is because most Jews ignore those parts. And Christian history features a whole lot of killing, too.
quote:
And that is where I think the writer's thinking breaks down because to this point he is unable to accept that he is pitting himself against God just as liberals do, and failing to grasp that God's actions are always right and true and for our good, and that he needs to grow to the point where he can understand how.
In other words you ought to go further than accepting the evil and become propagandists for the evil.
You say that there is nothing dangerous in Christianity but you accept genocide as good and necessary. Given your views about Islam - and your view that the State is empowered to act in ways unacceptable in individuals I don't think that genocide against Muslims is very far from your thinking - and your 'Christianity" encourages it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 09-19-2017 9:56 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Faith, posted 09-19-2017 5:28 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
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Posts: 17856
Joined: 01-10-2003
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Message 21 of 1540 (820387)
09-20-2017 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Faith
09-19-2017 5:28 PM


quote:
As the author says, there is no violence in today's Judaism, it's all part of the ancient historical context. Fake Christianity has done a lot of killing, not true Christianity.
You could say much the same from Islam. The fact remains that the Bible glorifies genocide, and you seek to praise that rather than reject it. That attitude tended to encourage future acts.
But it is interesting that you would think of Luther and those puritans who hunted witches as "Fake Christians"

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 Message 19 by Faith, posted 09-19-2017 5:28 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 3:59 AM PaulK has not replied

  
PaulK
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Posts: 17856
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 42 of 1540 (820455)
09-21-2017 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by NoNukes
09-20-2017 6:06 PM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
Almost, you forget that in Genesis Man was created to be a dumb gardener.
But in that story God is depicted as being more like a pagan God than the grand deity of monotheism. If God is assumed to be greater than the story shows, it becomes considerably different.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by NoNukes, posted 09-20-2017 6:06 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
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Posts: 17856
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 53 of 1540 (820470)
09-21-2017 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by NoNukes
09-21-2017 4:37 AM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
quote:
I reviewed the context of my comment. There is a considerable amount of story in Genesis that I did not mention
And I reviewed your comment and it was misleading without that point.
I further note that you did not address my other point which was relevant to your discussion with Tangle.

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PaulK
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Posts: 17856
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 75 of 1540 (820544)
09-22-2017 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by kbertsche
09-22-2017 11:33 AM


quote:
But that's NOT the point of this thread or of the OP, as I understand it. The point is to help unbelievers understand our perspective. We don't pick and choose the parts that we like about religion or theology, throwing away the rest.
More accurately you don't let your conscience influence your belief. But that, I must say is a worrying thing. To follow conscience when it is difficult is one thing - to go against it is quite another, especially when you hold your religion up as a source of morality.
That doesn't show that you don't engage in picking and choosing, and it is quite likely that you do.
But I have to say that I find what you call "picking and choosing" - on these grounds - more admirable then celebrating evil and calling it good. And if God is really perfectly good and just, I am pretty sure that is what He would prefer.

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PaulK
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Posts: 17856
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Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 79 of 1540 (820548)
09-22-2017 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Faith
09-22-2017 1:04 PM


Of course that isn't true. You are not judged despite what you say, but because of what you say. That really should be obvious.

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 Message 76 by Faith, posted 09-22-2017 1:04 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
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Posts: 17856
Joined: 01-10-2003
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Message 115 of 1540 (821047)
10-01-2017 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Faith
10-01-2017 4:26 PM


But according to you our choices are irrelevant to salvation, so the possibility of salvation shouldn't affect them anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Faith, posted 10-01-2017 4:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Faith, posted 10-01-2017 4:33 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
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Posts: 17856
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 118 of 1540 (821051)
10-01-2017 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Faith
10-01-2017 4:33 PM


So by believing the right things you can force God to save you ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Faith, posted 10-01-2017 4:33 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Faith, posted 10-01-2017 4:41 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
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Posts: 17856
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 121 of 1540 (821054)
10-01-2017 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Faith
10-01-2017 4:41 PM


Actually I was just echoing a pretty standard response to anything that smacks of "Salvation by Works". Which the idea that you can just choose to believe and be saved seems to come under.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Faith, posted 10-01-2017 4:41 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Faith, posted 10-01-2017 4:49 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
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Posts: 17856
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 123 of 1540 (821056)
10-01-2017 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Faith
10-01-2017 4:49 PM


It's your sophistry.
Choosing or not choosing Christ certainly affects our salvation. (...that whosoever believes on Him should have eternal life.).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Faith, posted 10-01-2017 4:49 PM Faith has not replied

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PaulK
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Posts: 17856
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 127 of 1540 (821077)
10-02-2017 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Phat
10-02-2017 8:51 AM


Re: Snake Eyes
quote:
The snake lied. They did not become as gods.
The serpent only said that they would become as gods in the sense of knowing good and evil (Genesis 3:5). The story clearly says that they did (e.g. Genesis 3:22)
So no, the serpent didn't lie about that. Odd how many people miss that, even though it is quite obviously there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 10-02-2017 8:51 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

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PaulK
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Posts: 17856
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 136 of 1540 (821089)
10-02-2017 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Phat
10-02-2017 10:11 AM


Re: Snake Eyes
quote:
I would argue, however, that we are far from gods. I was looking up the Strongs Hebrew for God and gods in the story and its the same word! That snake had the audacity to suggest that we were just like Elohim!
Actually it's God who suggests that in Genesis 3:22.
And the Lord God said, The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil...
(NIV)
Phat, you may think it's arrogant of jar to suggest that you hadn't read the Bible, but isn't it arrogant for you to make this mistake again after I've pointed it out and cited the verses ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Phat, posted 10-02-2017 10:11 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17856
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 146 of 1540 (821344)
10-06-2017 3:27 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Phat
10-05-2017 9:30 PM


Re: where the tension lies
Part of the problem is that the Bible isn't clear.
See this discussion for a start: Limited Atonement (Wikipedia)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Phat, posted 10-05-2017 9:30 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Phat, posted 10-06-2017 3:56 AM PaulK has not replied

  
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