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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 4 of 1540 (820324)
09-19-2017 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
09-19-2017 3:16 AM


Faith In What?
Great topic, Faith. When I first saw the title, I assumed the tension that would be discussed would be you--Faith the person rather than Faith: The Concept.
You are a fascinating study. I perused posts that you started as far back as 2006, namely
How the geo strata are identified as time periods (Note the polite exchange between Percy,jar, and Faith then)and found the exchange between you and Percy to be similar to how it is now, except that Percy has by and large accepted you as EvCs lone and unique creationist foil provided he gets to challenge your claims and force you to either discuss science on traditional science terminology with evidence or throw a tantrum and leave....and you often do both.
Let's get honest. You have admitted to me now that you are likely a presuppositionalist and that your worldview seeks evidence for your foregone conclusions (Not a Belief, But A Reality) but I am curious whether or not you think that I, and perhaps GDR could end up in hell for not being as accepting of the Bible as a literal word for word truth?
Not meaning to throw your thread off topic--I know you say the topic is more about Belief than about Yourself in general, but try and answer me if you will, just so I know where you stand in regards to your topic.
For the record, I believe that you are a bit extreme in your theology, but as long as you are honest with yourself and others and pray (as we all should) for God to make you less hateful and judgemental apart from how He Himself would be, you too will not end up in Hell.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 09-19-2017 3:16 AM Faith has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 5 of 1540 (820326)
09-19-2017 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
09-19-2017 3:16 AM


One More Thing For The Record
Before you scold me for misinterpreting your topic, I will remind you that you said:
quote:
I found a lot of depth in this essay and many angles that could be discussed.
So as long as we are discussing the concept of faith and belief, allow me to share what I believe about your relationship with God as well as the non believers here at EvC with that other view of Geology involving what you call their interpretation of evidence as opposed to your presuppositionalism view.
I believe that you consciously or perhaps subconsciously have great cognitive dissonance regarding even entertaining the idea that the Great Flood never happened. I have several friends like that---they won't even imagine the possibility---perhaps because it threatens their belief.
Religion’s finest moments in history have starred zealots who refused to bow to common sense whether the common sense of Seleucid imperialism or the common sense of American slavery. Religion must be uncomfortable and unusual, or it will be tautological. It must be authoritative and binding, or it will be a sham.
That quote summarizes what I feel you believe.
To be honest, the whole idea that the Bible is human-derived and flawed upsets what I want to be true also, but I am now getting better at entertaining the concept without feeling threatened by my innermost belief.
Your critics have said that you are a poor example of a poster girl for Christianity because of your beliefs regarding Islam and Muslims. Many of my friends are the same way---but to be fair I believe that there is evil in the world and holding a giant lovefest won't solve all of it.
Comments so far?
Edited by Phat, : edited thrust of argument

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 09-19-2017 3:16 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 09-19-2017 9:19 AM Phat has replied
 Message 9 by PaulK, posted 09-19-2017 9:32 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 14 of 1540 (820338)
09-19-2017 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
09-19-2017 9:56 AM


Representing
Faith writes:
I haven't the slightest cognitive dissonance about the Flood or the inerrancy of the Bible. There's no point in "entertaining" a contradiction of either notion when I know it is false. It has nothing to do with being "threatened," or even to do with anything I WANT to be true, it's just that I know what I know.
Perhaps this is why you never respond to their claims for you to provide evidence. You have already decided beforehand that your observations are good enough for you and if they don't see it, that's their problem and not yours.
Faith writes:
I don't WANT anybody to go to Hell, but if I believe God has decreed it I can't argue with God, and all I can do is pray that God will save those I care about.
When I used to argue with jar, I found it preposterous that he would even suggest that a human should argue with God and put God on trial if the Creator erred in any judgment. After all, how could God ever need correction?
You, on the other hand, say that you can't argue with God. While i believe that God is perfect and without error, I most certainly feel that intercession is not only allowed but demanded. Moreover, i see jars point. Perhaps God expects us to correct certain things that need correcting.
Let's take tangle as another case-in-point. He is an atheist, yet he has a good moral framework and outlook on things and quite logically points out that our God is unreasonable, cruel, and unrealistic. How on earth would you pray in that circumstance? More importantly, how can you live with representing the God that Tangle denies...perhaps because of your own attitude? Who am I to tell someone that they may end up in hell? jar has even mentioned that if the God we market turned out to be real, he would laugh in the Creators face.
Can you see where he is coming from? (It is good to imagine yourself in other peoples views)
Faith writes:
And that is where I think the writer's thinking breaks down because to this point he is unable to accept that he is pitting himself against God just as liberals do, and failing to grasp that God's actions are always right and true and for our good, and that he needs to grow to the point where he can understand how.
Wait...so you think that God is a conservative?
Edited by Phat, : revised a few wordings

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 09-19-2017 9:56 AM Faith has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 52 of 1540 (820469)
09-21-2017 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Tangle
09-21-2017 7:49 AM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
tangle writes:
...it's more important that those who believe in these things actually justify what they believe and the justification is not in the bible stories, it's in the logic of their belief in them. eg how can you believe in a loving god that condemns 90% of all humanity to everlasting torture for something a distant parent allegedly did?
Lets take this over to Encouragement From A Believers Perspective.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Tangle, posted 09-21-2017 7:49 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 54 of 1540 (820473)
09-21-2017 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Percy
09-21-2017 7:07 AM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
Percy writes:
Just the nonsense and illogic you listed is sufficient to show that Christianity is a work of imagination. To ask you for more makes as much sense as asking someone to tighten up their arguments against the existence of leprechauns. One could do it, but it's not like it's necessary.
Christianity is religion, not history or science. Religions do what they do, and portions of many of them make a kind of internal sense, including Christianity, but they don't make sense in the real world, and fact and reality is all that is required to make this point.
The only way to make any sense out of beliefs, scriptures, or doctrines is to have someone explain them the way that the individual believes and why.
What frustrates me about Faith is that she ignores responding to any of her critics---even to me--who is not as critical as some...I only want her to be honest and admit that her logic is based on her belief. Faith, if you hope to reach any of the people here at EvC you are simply going to have to answer their questions and quit dodging them. Quoting scripture won't work in the absence of honest participation.
When I first came to EvC, I was frustrated that my beliefs were challenged and even mocked. i now realize that I needed that baptism of fire and am glad that I have responded and continue to respond to many who have a different worldview from myself.
As far as salvation and Jesus goes, I also encourage people to accept the hypothetical and let reality sort itself out. Please don't judge Jesus based on the flawed personalities of myself or faith. Were it I, I also wouldn't judge Him based on the behavior of the God in OT stories.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Percy, posted 09-21-2017 7:07 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


(1)
Message 56 of 1540 (820509)
09-21-2017 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by ringo
09-21-2017 11:51 AM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
well, technically they had to eat from the tree of life first. One could say that jesus (as the vine) represents that tree. People chose knowledge (independence) and self awareness over communion, however. And we(many of we) continue to do the same today.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by ringo, posted 09-21-2017 11:51 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by ringo, posted 09-22-2017 11:47 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 63 of 1540 (820525)
09-22-2017 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Tangle
09-22-2017 2:01 AM


Substitute Strategies For Centering the Mind
Tangle writes:
What could be more relevant than whether a supplicant is wasting his time begging for help?
Prayer is not about begging. It's about turning off your inner Alpha Male for a moment and surrendering to peace, patience, and wisdom. Granted you don't pray...but what would be your method if you were in a hurricane and the roof suddenly blew off? would you matter of factly and instinctively react or would you freeze...paralyzed by fear?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Tangle, posted 09-22-2017 2:01 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Tangle, posted 09-22-2017 4:56 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 89 of 1540 (820563)
09-22-2017 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by ringo
09-22-2017 12:52 PM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
Logically, God wouldnt particularly want creatures living forever that wanted nothing to do with Him.
It would be similar to America allowing one of its states to be run by Kim Jong Un and refusing to participate in the consensus government already formed.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by ringo, posted 09-22-2017 12:52 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Tangle, posted 09-22-2017 5:08 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 91 by Aussie, posted 09-22-2017 5:14 PM Phat has replied
 Message 94 by ringo, posted 09-23-2017 11:41 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


(1)
Message 93 of 1540 (820570)
09-23-2017 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Aussie
09-22-2017 5:14 PM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
Actually Aussie--you have a good point. I've always wondered why ceasing to exist was not offered to those who failed to make the cut---it would be more humane.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Aussie, posted 09-22-2017 5:14 PM Aussie has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 95 of 1540 (820583)
09-23-2017 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by ringo
09-23-2017 11:41 AM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
You have a point, though why then not create more than simply two people? Why not create a whole planet full of them?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by ringo, posted 09-23-2017 11:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by ringo, posted 09-24-2017 2:06 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 98 of 1540 (820617)
09-24-2017 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by ringo
09-23-2017 11:41 AM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
ringo writes:
Logically, there's no point to male and female without procreation.
Sure there is. Ever heard of complementary? Male and Female are a type and shadow of God and humans. We symbolically marry Him, as His Bride.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by ringo, posted 09-23-2017 11:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by NoNukes, posted 09-24-2017 6:57 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 101 by ringo, posted 09-25-2017 11:48 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


(1)
Message 110 of 1540 (821030)
10-01-2017 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Faith
09-30-2017 1:36 PM


Tense Moments On The Merry-Go-Round
Faith writes:
As for those who never heard of Jesus, there are probably fewer these days than ever before thanks to missionaries, but if you like you could join in getting the word out so more might be saved.
Personally, I believe that getting the word out involves being a person of integrity and honesty as much as possible. Hypothetically I could be selling the right product and yet by my behavior as a salesman, nobody is buying from me.
You can't sell a forum full of scientists the idea that belief needs to be the presupposition rather than evidence. At least I can't. IF I TOLD THEM THAT THEY NEED TO OPEN THEIR EYES they might question my sanity.... I can tell them that Jesus is the ultimate presupposition and observation leading to any conclusion, but if I am the only living representative of Jesus that they see, the truth of my book...even if absolute...is destroyed by my character or advanced through my character. We are the point of contact between Jesus and humanity.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Faith, posted 09-30-2017 1:36 PM Faith has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 116 of 1540 (821048)
10-01-2017 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by ringo
10-01-2017 4:28 PM


Eternal Teacher
That's your destiny! You may need an eternity to educate them.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by ringo, posted 10-01-2017 4:28 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by ringo, posted 10-02-2017 11:39 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 126 of 1540 (821068)
10-02-2017 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by jar
10-01-2017 5:27 PM


Snake Eyes
Except of course for the fact that in the Bible Adam & Eve did not lose their standing with God or earn eternal damnation.
They would eventually die, however. For some reason, God posted a guard at the tree of life. They had to work for a living and become responsible, rather than get a free pass to eternity.
The snake lied. They did not become as gods.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by jar, posted 10-01-2017 5:27 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by PaulK, posted 10-02-2017 9:25 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 128 by jar, posted 10-02-2017 9:44 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


(1)
Message 130 of 1540 (821080)
10-02-2017 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by jar
10-02-2017 9:44 AM


Re: Snake Eyes
Have you ever actually read the Bible Phat?
You always say this and frankly its arrogant. Why not pull up a stump and set a spell...you might actually learn something new. As may I.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by jar, posted 10-02-2017 9:44 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by jar, posted 10-02-2017 10:05 AM Phat has replied

  
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