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Author | Topic: The Bundys and the Armed Occupation of a National Wildlife Refuge | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
This article is chilling. It is starting to feel like this is just one part of much larger, well-planned operation to steal public lands all over the western states.
How Refuge Occupation Could Fuel Land Privatization MovementWhat if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3991 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 6.9
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Greed, mixed with an ideological and historical antipathy to the Feds, creates a special breed of patriot.
I followed a sidebar link on that page, Controversial Federal Grazing Fees Not A Great Deal For Anyone, to an article from Oregon Public Broadcasting. I'm still trying to work through all the points there, with some difficulty because it mixes numbers with general assertions, but many of the numbers there seem to contradict their headline. But the first chart on that page, Federal Grazing Fees Vs. State and Private, is of particular interest to me (sorry, lost my screen capture with the Windows 10 upgrade and can't duplicate it here). One can see that the federal fees dipped in the early 1980s and have remained essentially flat with only a minor uptick in recent years. Private grazing fees have risen steadily since the early 80s, more steeply recently, and are now about 2.5x what they were in the 80s. In the past five years, Oregon State grazing fees have risen more sharply than the others, after many flat years, and are now roughly 3x the federal rate. You'd think that radical ranchers would occupy Oregon state lands and take over state government first, given the purported support of Oregonians, and you have to wonder why Oregon state can't do a better job of providing low cost leases. The fact that federal fees cover a fraction of their management costs (we all make up the difference in taxes) suggests why Oregon's are so much higher, and makes it clear that, ultimately, only privitization could possibly serve the ranchers' land grab interests. But once they are private, the market rate of leases on that land would soar, as real world costs are recovered. But a lot of people would make a lot of money in the process. I've noticed in several reports the claim that Oregon is "land poor" because roughly half the state's 98K square miles are federal public lands. Oregon is the ninth largest state; 49K square miles weigh in as bigger than either Ohio or Pennsylvania. I understand that much of Oregon may not provide optimal terrain and climate for ranching, but that hardly seems an argument for turning it all over to what appears to be at best a marginally appropriate use. I live in a small village in the Adirondacks, just a few miles from the Blue Line that defines the Adirondack State Park. The tourism and hospitality industries provide major influxes of cash to communities nearby and within the Park. Many of the communities here feel disadvantaged by this, convinced that a free hand at logging, mining, and vacation home/resort development would rescue them from their economic doldrums. The kids wouldn't have to leave to find a future, and the standard of living would improve. They're probably right in the short term. A boom fueled by resource extraction and construction would probably lift all boats. But then what? People come here because it is beautiful and unspoiled: cut down the trees and mine the hills, ring the protected lakes with resorts and fill them with jet skis, and tourists could find everything we've got a lot closer to home. Despoiling these lands would be like using all your seed corn to make one great big enchilada: the boom would be a bomb. Driven through W. Virgina lately? I stopped and wept the last time I drove through their zone of mountaintop coal extraction. I haven't been back. The resentment of environmental and use laws also infuriate the local folks here. Winter sports--hunting, snowmobiling, cross-country skiing--are important attractors. There are 1,800 miles of snowmobile trails in the Park. But that's not enough--there is constant pressure to open up more, including into areas that enjoy the Park's highest protected status. If there is a one mile trail hike to a trout stream, the snowmobilers and 4-wheelers insist it is unfair to keep their vehicles off that trail. If a lake's pristine quiet is protected, then the lobbying is for opening up old fire and logging roads so that motorboats can use it, too. It's only fair, they say. We should be able to use every square inch accessible to deep back country hikers and campers. Every lake should enjoy the noise, fuel and invasive species pollution brought by motorboats., This fight isn't going away anywhere. Some folks look at the natural world and see $$$ hanging from the trees or tumbling across the prairies and deserts. That extracting those $$$ would forever destroy a resource that banks many millions of dollars per year for local communities in perpetuity is irrelevant. We see again that there is no conserve in conservatives: drill it all, mine it all, cut it all down: our future generations can solve their own resource problems; the loss of truly wild nature isn't seen as a problem. There may be more toxic mixes than greed and ideology (faith and ethnic fear/hate?), but I don't know any that pose a greater threat to a natural heritage that belongs to us all. There are also many New Yorkers determind to protect the Park, and I suspect that the ranchers, while succeeding in rousing like-minded folks, have also galvanized many more Americans who are aghast at their actions and intentions. I hope so. Edited by Omnivorous, : Ack...fixed one thing, live with the rest. Edited by Omnivorous, : Just couldn't leave cross-country skiing without the second o..."If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads." Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.-Terence
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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I followed a sidebar link on that page, Controversial Federal Grazing Fees Not A Great Deal For Anyone, to an article from Oregon Public Broadcasting. I'm still trying to work through all the points there, with some difficulty because it mixes numbers with general assertions, but many of the numbers there seem to contradict their headline. The irony is that the ranchers have been getting a fantastic deal for more than a century. Extremely cheap grazing fees plus the feds do all the work as far as restoration of damage caused by grazing and control of invasive weeds. I found this to be a very informative commentary about what these guys are after. The Bundys Have A Vision For The West, and You Aren't Included quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: So we can assume that the Bubbas will still have their hands out for public subsidies after they steal public lands. Considering the lack of response to the occupation by the DOJ so far, they might just get away with it.What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3991 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 6.9
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Tanypteryx writes: I found this to be a very informative commentary about what these guys are after. The Bundys Have A Vision For The West, and You Aren't Included If I could persuade everyone to read one article on the public land use issue, it would be this one. I recently read a history of the transcontinental railroad, so I had some idea of the land grab associated with it; similarly, I was aware of the abuses by large ranchers of the Homestead Act--as the article notes, even Hollywood westerns made that clear. But I found the scale of the loss/theft of public lands over the last 150 years staggering. I'm not going to quote to illustrate it here. Read it."If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads." Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.-Terence
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JonF Member (Idle past 198 days) Posts: 6174 Joined:
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Now they have elected a "judge" who will try Hammond v. Bureau of Land Management. He will prepare a finding.
Words fail. Access denied | Crooks and Liars Edited by JonF, : No reason given.
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3991 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 6.9
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Hunters Push Back, Tear Down Militants' Sign At Malheur Refuge
quote: I've quoted most of the meat, but there's a heart-warming video Hunters vs. ranchers: just when I was wondering, where's Gary Cooper when you need him? I'm pleased to report hearing similar sentiments from hunters (everybody hunts here); and while New York cattle ranching is miniscule compared to the western states, the ranchers I know, who work hard to make a living without subsidies, show nothing but disdain for the terrorists. Big Ken (Rocky to his friends), who shares my fondness for biscuits and gravy at Motors, and who supplements his ranching income by hauling other folks' cattle to market, says of the occupiers' long absence from their ranches, "Those guys ain't ranchers, they're investors.""If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads." Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.-Terence |
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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I seem to be spending more time than I really want, looking for stories and opinions opposed to the criminals mounting an armed occupation on public land in SE Oregon.
Tobias Coughlin-Bogue writes about another point of view on the issues involving Malheur.
My Dad Worked at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, and He Knows What Happens When Ranchers Get Their Way (emphasis mine)
quote: quote: quote: quote: I find myself remembering many great experiences at Malheur. In 1974, I attended a 3-week nature photography course at the Malheur Environmental Field Station. The course was limited to 15 students and we had incredible access to some of the best wildlife, scenery, cultural, and historical areas on and around the refuge. Prior to that time and for many years after, my father and I spent long weekends every spring doing nature photography on the refuge and the surrounding areas. I like to visit during all the seasons most years. The Malheur Environmental Field Station was run by Denzel Ferguson while I was there. Denzel Ferguson spent a quarter-century fighting to protect public lands from ranchers who thought they had a right to use them however they pleased. Ferguson wrote several books, Sacred Cows at the Public Trough, 1983 and Oregon's Great Basin Country, 1979. The field station had 2 black and white darkrooms that were in use by the class at night. It was 3 weeks of the most intense focus on photography in my life, up until that time. The course was taught by a retired zoology prof from Oregon State University and could be taken for college credit. I was the oldest student by several years. There was one student who was in high school and the rest were in college. There were a couple dozen classes going on at the same time. Ornithology, Herpetology, Mammalogy, Archeology, Vascular Plants of the Steens, and many more were all packed with enthusiastic students. I learned so much. Richard Nixon resigned while I was there. What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3991 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 6.9
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Tanypteryx writes: I seem to be spending more time than I really want, looking for stories and opinions opposed to the criminals mounting an armed occupation on public land in SE Oregon. Well, yeah, me too. I've found opb.org really helpful at delivering some reassurance about local and regional sentiment out west: a 2013 survey showing western residents favor the benefits of public lands and parks over profit-driven exploitation by a wide margin; that 40% of Harney County residents are federal employees, with most families including both federal employees and ranchers, and that even local folks sympathetic to the Bundy's complaints reject their methods. I'm a bit obsessed and considerably frightened, perhaps in part because I made my first wide-ranging visit to western states just a few years ago and have seriously considered relocating, spellbound by the splendor of it (Beartooth Pass is a life-changing sight); and because I fear a perfect storm of conservative electoral success and corporate-funded movements to take public lands for private profit. Also, I have kids and grandkids. It's their land, too, and I'll be damned if I'll let these guys take it."If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads." Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.-Terence
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3991 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 6.9
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I'm trying to cut back but I found some useful links and encouraging Oregonian reactions here:
Wildlife enthusiasts plan protests over Oregon occupation quote: The comments are interesting as well, with some folks offering to run 'em off. Don't mess with birders."If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads." Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.-Terence
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ramoss Member (Idle past 642 days) Posts: 3228 Joined:
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Apparently, he was using one of the federally owned vehicles to pick up supplies, so he got arrested for unauthorized use of a government vehicle (for now)
Page not found | USUNCUT - US News | Breaking News | Latest News Today
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
I found them earlier and sent them a little money.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
And while the Friends are careful about criticizing the law enforcement response, some are pushing the FBI and other agencies to act. Why? The growing public reaction to the Hummer Humper Brigade of Y'all Qaeda, Oregon Branch, is the best thing to happen to the "patriot" movement. Let them implode.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Why? The growing public reaction to the Hummer Humper Brigade of Y'all Qaeda, Oregon Branch, is the best thing to happen to the "patriot" movement. Let them implode. But pick them off one by one or two by two as the leave. It's no Alamo ... Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : No reason given.by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
quote: Can this action in Oregon be considered levying war against the United States? I think most of us realize such actions are actually attempts at theft from The People under the thin guise of anti-federal government "patriotism". I don't see treason here as much as out-and-out stupidity during the commission of a felony.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Can this action in Oregon be considered levying war against the United States? I think you are correct in saying that charging as treason is quite a stretch. On the other hand, why do that kind of stretching. I suspect that most of the occupiers have already accumulated enough ordinary violations as to put themselves away indefinitely. Just carrying a firearm into a federal building for the purpose of committing a crime is punishable by up to five years. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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