Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 53 (9179 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: Anig
Upcoming Birthdays: Theodoric
Post Volume: Total: 918,057 Year: 5,314/9,624 Month: 339/323 Week: 183/160 Day: 0/19 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Bundys and the Armed Occupation of a National Wildlife Refuge
jar
Member
Posts: 34120
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 61 of 254 (776827)
01-20-2016 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Omnivorous
01-20-2016 5:16 PM


Re: How to crack these neanderthals in a nutshell...
Okay, two words.
"Hamster Dance"

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Omnivorous, posted 01-20-2016 5:16 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4554
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 62 of 254 (776829)
01-20-2016 9:21 PM


This just keeps getting better
The Feds have let this get completely out of hand. Oregon governor calls on Feds to act, says 'this spectacle of lawlessness must end'
It is time to cut the power, blockade the roads, and move in and arrest everyone of these criminals. At the refuge, it's time to pull the plug: Editorial
Now more of these nuts have turned up. ‘God wants us here’: More militiamen arrive at Malheur
This is turning into a total Cluster F**K. The chances of this ending without bloodshed are almost zero.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Omnivorous, posted 01-20-2016 10:14 PM Tanypteryx has not replied
 Message 64 by anglagard, posted 01-20-2016 10:40 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 63 of 254 (776831)
01-20-2016 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Tanypteryx
01-20-2016 9:21 PM


Re: This just keeps getting better
Tanypteryx writes:
This is turning into a total Cluster F**K. The chances of this ending without bloodshed are almost zero.
I think that may be true. They got their community meeting, where they heard chants to go! go! go! Alpha Bundy repeated his insistence on staying until the Hammonds were released and federal lands surrendered.
At long last, having made a mental note a dozen times, I googled 'Hammond arson trial'. I recommend it. Not only were the Hammonds serial arsonists, the feds reacted to their first (of at least three) arson with only a warning.
The Hammonds claim they started one of the prosecuted fires to clear invasive species, and the other as a back-burn to stop a fire on federal lands from reaching their winter feed. They also endangered a working fire-fighting crew on a butte above them with the latter and concealed evidence of deer poaching with the former. They fired at hunters on public lands.
They instructed a young nephew to start one fire; he had to shelter in a creek to survive it. He was also later subjected to abuse: forced to eat two cans of chewing tobacco and then hike 10 miles; subjected to crude dermabrasionof his chest with coarse sandpaper because the family disliked the initials he carved there with a safety pin.
The sanding took about five minutes. The family won't tell who did the sanding: 'It was a family decision. He agreed to it.' He testified against the two Hammonds now in jail. "Light the whole county on fire!" he said he was told.
There's more, a lot more.
A lot of this stuff is glossed over in coverage of the occupation. It's revealing to learn what kind of jamokes they're threatening bloodshed to free.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-20-2016 9:21 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 943 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 64 of 254 (776832)
01-20-2016 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Tanypteryx
01-20-2016 9:21 PM


Re: This just keeps getting better
Tanypteryx writes:
The Feds have let this get completely out of hand. Oregon governor calls on Feds to act, says 'this spectacle of lawlessness must end'
Last time I looked, governors had the authority to call on the national guard in their state to quell insurrection. that's what happened in New Mexico during the Santa Fe Pen riot.
Have things changed so much this is no longer true? If the Feds refuse to act, then why should the state also refuse when they are within their rights? Political cowardice?
The State of Oregon has the power to seal off these fools from all electricity, supplies, and contact with the civilized world? Why do they refuse to act?
This situation reminds me of the narrative Shirer used in Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. The Wiemar Republic persecuted left-wing violence to the limit of the law and beyond while only lightly treating right-wing violence of the same nature, if at all.
Have some guts, damn federal and state cowards, and do your duty as per your oath of office.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-20-2016 9:21 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by AZPaul3, posted 01-20-2016 11:32 PM anglagard has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8610
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 65 of 254 (776833)
01-20-2016 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by anglagard
01-20-2016 10:40 PM


Re: This just keeps getting better
Have things changed so much this is no longer true? If the Feds refuse to act, then why should the state also refuse when they are within their rights?
The state has no authority/standing to perform police actions on federal lands. The refuge is not a part of Oregon.
[edit]
I'm of two minds here. The dove in me says violence is never the answer, especially when the death toll has the potential to be dozens of fellow american lives no matter how twisted their political bent. Wait them out. There may yet be a non-violent solution in the future.
The hawk in me says we should storm the area with helicopter gun-ships and tanks crushing the Y'all Qaeda terrorists little heads under the tracks of our APCs.
Then, again, if we wait a bit more, more "patriots" will gravitate to the Hummer Humpers and we can crush more of them all at once when we unleash the dogs.
A lesson in American society: Hear the drum beat of war swell in our society. See how easily we pull the gun and resort to blood.
Edited by AZPaul3, : edit

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by anglagard, posted 01-20-2016 10:40 PM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by anglagard, posted 01-21-2016 12:05 AM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 69 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-21-2016 12:48 AM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 71 by RAZD, posted 01-21-2016 2:43 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 943 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 66 of 254 (776834)
01-20-2016 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Omnivorous
01-20-2016 4:22 PM


Re: How to crack these neanderthals in a nutshell...
Omnivorous writes:
Guns N' Roses suck, but The Clash and Tull were too good for Noriega. Still, it seemed to work, though the Holy See was not amused.
Considering we are likely dealing with Hank Williams and Buck Owens fans, I figure King Crimson and Ozric Tentacles might be appropriate, but while that 'too many notes thing' could work, that is likely too melodic. Skrillix and even worse dubstep is also a possibility, along with previously suggested rap and house music, and then of course we always have Thinking Plague.
But then the obvious suddenly hit:
Eat that 24/7 at 150 decibels, the rest of their catalog is even more obnoxiously creative and can be used as well.
Gotta love em' when appropriate.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Omnivorous, posted 01-20-2016 4:22 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 943 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


(2)
Message 67 of 254 (776835)
01-21-2016 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by AZPaul3
01-20-2016 11:32 PM


Re: This just keeps getting better
AZPaul writes:
The state has no authority/standing to perform police actions on federal lands. The refuge is not a part of Oregon.
True but...
Are all the roads that enter this federal land also federal property? I see no Interstate or even national highway according to Google maps.
A firm stand by the state could force the federal hand. Sorry, I see political cowardice in the face of right-wing terrorism a major flaw at both the federal and state level.
Cop out, plain and simple. How long would this last if Black Lives Matter had taken over the refuge?
Edited by anglagard, : add original statement

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by AZPaul3, posted 01-20-2016 11:32 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by AZPaul3, posted 01-21-2016 12:30 AM anglagard has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8610
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 68 of 254 (776836)
01-21-2016 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by anglagard
01-21-2016 12:05 AM


Re: This just keeps getting better
How long would this last if Black Lives Matter had taken over the refuge?
I don't know. Probably not long in this racist society.
Remember the Indian occupation of Alcatraz. Blood may not be necessary.
Then again, a few dead patriot bodies laid out on the snow would send a message.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by anglagard, posted 01-21-2016 12:05 AM anglagard has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4554
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 69 of 254 (776837)
01-21-2016 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by AZPaul3
01-20-2016 11:32 PM


Re: This just keeps getting better
The state has no authority/standing to perform police actions on federal lands. The refuge is not a part of Oregon.
This is incorrect. The refuge is in Oregon and crimes committed there are investigated by the state police or the county sheriff. Federal law enforcement is pretty sparse in Oregon except in metropolitan areas. Since federal property is the focus of the crime the FBI would have jurisdiction, but if they won't act the governor should be able to act.
I'm of two minds here. The dove in me says violence is never the answer, especially when the death toll has the potential to be dozens of fellow American lives no matter how twisted their political bent. Wait them out. There may yet be a non-violent solution in the future.
Whether the authorities wait them out or storm them, they first need to isolate them and stop this fucking bullshit of letting them come and go and more assholes showing up and joining them.
By now they probably have generators, so cutting the power has less effect. This all should have been taken care of in the first couple days. Infiltrators should have gone in at night and slashed all the tires on their vehicles and sugared their gas tanks.
The authorities have looked like idiots through this and we can only hope that the new guys showing up are actually federal undercover agents or this is going to be one of the biggest law enforcement screwups of all time.
If a shootout actually starts the refuge headquarters makes a pretty good fort, being built of heavy thick stone. It would be a scientific tragedy of the museum is damaged or destroyed.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by AZPaul3, posted 01-20-2016 11:32 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by AZPaul3, posted 01-21-2016 1:35 AM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8610
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 70 of 254 (776839)
01-21-2016 1:35 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Tanypteryx
01-21-2016 12:48 AM


Re: This just keeps getting better
Since federal property is the focus of the crime the FBI would have jurisdiction, but if they won't act the governor should be able to act.
I think you'll find that on a day-to-day basis, allowing local police authorities to handle investigating criminal activity on federal lands, is an expedient and agreed to use of police powers already in place to act on behalf of federal authority. The state still has no right to act in any matter like this occupation on its own volition.
Without federal authority the governor cannot call out the National Guard and storm the Malheur Wildlife Refuge.
As for the rest of your well versed frustrated rant ... I agree.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-21-2016 12:48 AM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1511 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 71 of 254 (776861)
01-21-2016 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by AZPaul3
01-20-2016 11:32 PM


Re: This just keeps getting better
Then, again, if we wait a bit more, more "patriots" will gravitate to the Hummer Humpers and we can crush more of them all at once when we unleash the dogs.
While I figure the FBI already has these people on a watch list (or should), this may be a way to see who shows up, any new faces, etc.
I do think access OUT should be blocked, but let as many nuts inside as want to go, arrest anyone who comes out.
Letting them have press conferences and attend meetings is not working.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by AZPaul3, posted 01-20-2016 11:32 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-21-2016 4:37 PM RAZD has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4554
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 72 of 254 (776866)
01-21-2016 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by RAZD
01-21-2016 2:43 PM


Re: This just keeps getting better
Letting them have press conferences and attend meetings is not working.
Plus their cronies are harassing the families of law enforcement and federal workers. These un-American thugs are an embarrassment to us all.
Letter from Governor Kate Brown to the U.S. Dept. of Justice.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by RAZD, posted 01-21-2016 2:43 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by RAZD, posted 01-21-2016 5:11 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1511 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 73 of 254 (776869)
01-21-2016 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Tanypteryx
01-21-2016 4:37 PM


Sign the Petition?
Plus their cronies are harassing the families of law enforcement and federal workers. These un-American thugs are an embarrassment to us all.
Well there is a petition for the USGov to take action:
The White House
quote:
We petition the obama administration to:
Arrest Ammon Bundy and the armed occupiers of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge.
President Obama,
We respectfully request that you end the armed occupation of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge immediately. At the very least, you owe the American people an explanation as to why the area has not been isolated. Members of their organization can come and go as they please, members of the community can visit the occupied facility, and other right-wing extremist groups such as the Idaho III% can show their support.
Law enforcement inaction up to this point is an egregious violation of public safety and emboldens their erroneous assertions that the US Government has no Constitutional Authority.
Please end the siege of the refuge and arraign Ammon Bundy as soon as possible.
The petition is ~1/8 of the way to enough signatures, but it HAS doubled since I signed: more people need to know about it -- you can spread the information on your facebook or twitter accounts.
Note that this started in Oregon and has a lot of support from our western citizens.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-21-2016 4:37 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-21-2016 6:18 PM RAZD has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4554
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 74 of 254 (776873)
01-21-2016 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by RAZD
01-21-2016 5:11 PM


Re: Sign the Petition?
I tried to sign the Whitehouse petition twice. It said I needed to confirm it on an email, but no email came.
The FBI looks totally incompetent today when they had the perfect opportunity to take Bundy into custody. FBI and Oregon standoff leaders begin negotiations to end refuge occupation
ABE: I used a different email address and the petition worked.
Edited by Tanypteryx, : No reason given.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by RAZD, posted 01-21-2016 5:11 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by RAZD, posted 01-22-2016 9:44 AM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 75 of 254 (776877)
01-21-2016 9:08 PM


Now they have bulldozed a more convenient path...
Through an archaeological site, which is why the path didn't go through there.
And the convicted (2nd degree, sentence served) murderer who just showed up totin' his gun.

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024