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Author Topic:   The Bundys and the Armed Occupation of a National Wildlife Refuge
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 254 (776427)
01-13-2016 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Omnivorous
01-12-2016 7:55 PM


But as she notes, this has been going on for many years--more than 20 for Cliven Bundy, without consequence for him.
Not just going without consequence. Didn't a couple of Congressmen celebrate Bundy during the last incident?
WaPo: GOP Presidential Candidates Who Are Silent Over Oregon Standoff Previously Praised Cliven Bundy's Cause | Media Matters for America
quote:
In 2014, during the Bundy ranch standoff, Paul and Cruz initially argued that an important principle was at stake. Candidates Ben Carson, Mike Huckabee and Donald Trump also have expressed sympathy or support for Bundy.
quote:
He [Senator Rand Paul] also met with Bundy after a campaign stop in Mesquite, Nev., something Paul disputes the details of. Bundy told The Washington Post that he and Paul spoke for 15 to 20 minutes, mostly about land rights. Bundy said members of his family were also present.
I can understand the desire to be patient with the situation, but I don't understand why these guys are free to come and go and to have other people bring them candy bars.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Omnivorous, posted 01-12-2016 7:55 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Omnivorous, posted 01-13-2016 8:46 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 254 (776588)
01-16-2016 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by AZPaul3
01-16-2016 11:33 AM


Re: Some useful links
Can this action in Oregon be considered levying war against the United States?
I think you are correct in saying that charging as treason is quite a stretch. On the other hand, why do that kind of stretching. I suspect that most of the occupiers have already accumulated enough ordinary violations as to put themselves away indefinitely. Just carrying a firearm into a federal building for the purpose of committing a crime is punishable by up to five years.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by AZPaul3, posted 01-16-2016 11:33 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 96 of 254 (777108)
01-26-2016 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by jar
01-26-2016 9:13 AM


Re: Demands
The only requirement is that you be willfully dishonest and ignorant.
I don't think these guys lie anymore. Yeah, they must have started out as pure liars, but by now at least some of them have come around to believing their own BS. It is exactly the same as with the Bible, Constitution, History, just as you say. Cherry pick a phrase here, a verse there, and recite half a quote and claim that John Paul Jones[1] said it, and you've got a lie formed out of facts.
I find it amusing that the article spends time analyzing whether or not it is even possible for the executive branch to meet the demands.
[1] Go Navy!!

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by jar, posted 01-26-2016 9:13 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by jar, posted 01-26-2016 2:07 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 121 of 254 (777318)
01-29-2016 1:55 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Hyroglyphx
01-29-2016 1:31 AM


Re: practice anti-domestic terrorist training
If the Feds were smart, they would surround the building and starve them out.
I think that is pretty much what the feds are now doing. Some of the holdouts are realizing that they may have missed an opportunity to go home.
quote:
Why can’t I get in my vehicle and drive home like I’ve done four other times since I got here?said Sean Anderson, 47, of Riggins, Idaho, who was at the refuge along with wife
That's a pretty silly thing to say, but according to the article I'm reading quite a few of the remaining occupiers don't understand why they cannot just go home.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-29-2016 1:31 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-29-2016 4:01 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 125 of 254 (777337)
01-29-2016 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Hyroglyphx
01-29-2016 4:01 AM


Re: practice anti-domestic terrorist training
I imagine a hostile takeover of a government building could land them, at a minimum, 3-5 years in a federal penitentiary.
That's about right. As a couple of people have pointed out, some of these guys may well accomplish their goal of occupying federal property until the Hammonds are freed from prison.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-29-2016 4:01 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 155 of 254 (778270)
02-18-2016 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by RAZD
02-12-2016 12:57 PM


Re: Occupation Over
Will the government take Bundy land for failure to pay taxes and other fees? Not out of the question I would think -- there are laws allowing the seizure of property used during committing a crime
Yes there are such laws, but for the most part those laws are total crap, and I cannot find the energy to support their use on anyone. If it is necessary to seize some Bundy property to get back that million dollars worth of grazing fees, then so be it. I'm down with that.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by RAZD, posted 02-12-2016 12:57 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 156 of 254 (778326)
02-19-2016 9:51 AM


Papa Bundy arrested: No bail
Sorry. RAZD already announced the capture of Cliven.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 157 of 254 (778327)
02-19-2016 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by RAZD
02-11-2016 12:41 PM


Re: unintended consequences?
RAZD writes:
Oops ... Daddy Bundy busted ...
Why did Cliven's arrest take so long. Well perhaps that is just the 2nd amendment working just the way some gun nuts tell us it is supposed to work.
quote:
Out of safety concerns, local law officers allowed the gunmen and the conspirators to leave the site without facing arrest.
It took nearly took two years for authorities to finally file charges against Bundy because, prosecutors indicated, "the investigation became purely historical in nature."
"The presence of many gunmen in and near the area of Bundy Ranch, the armed checkpoints and patrols, the presence of assault weapons in the militia camps, including (by some accounts) a .50 caliber machine gun, further increased the difficulty of conducting a physical investigation of Bundy Ranch or the impoundment site," prosecutors added.
Now he has more serious charges than tax evasion.
Cliven most likely will never roam his ranch again.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by RAZD, posted 02-11-2016 12:41 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 163 of 254 (788385)
07-30-2016 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Tanypteryx
07-30-2016 3:12 PM


Re: The prosecution lays out its case
Some of the legal theories mentioned in the article are nothing short of bizarre.
quote:
Adverse possession is the occupation of land to which another person has title with the intention of possessing it as one's own. The Bundy brothers have argued that it was their intent to stake claim to the refuge through adverse possession.
Adverse possession allows acquiring property by sitting on the land for some amount of time without any significant action by the owner to recover the property. The time period is generally on the order of 10 years and is perhaps as long as 30 years in some states. But you cannot invoke adverse possession by taking over a property and repelling the owners attempts to recover the property by force of arms.
quote:
Ryan Bundy and Medenbach also face charges of theft of government property. Medenbach is accused of stealing a 2012 Ford truck from the refuge and driving it to the Burns Safeway on Jan. 15, where he was arrested. He's said in court that he was borrowing the truck to buy groceries.
In short, Medenbach's statement, rather than being a defense, is an admission to all of the elements needed to prove auto theft.
Edited by NoNukes, : discuss another charge

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Tanypteryx, posted 07-30-2016 3:12 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-31-2016 1:30 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 174 of 254 (790758)
09-04-2016 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Tanypteryx
09-03-2016 5:16 PM


Re: More pretrial manuvers
mocks federal prosecutors
Actually the lawyer did have a small point. Generally, adverse possession does not work for government held lands, but there is an exception under 43 U.S. Code 1068 that allows the Secretary of the Interior to recognize certain claims. See 43 U.S. Code § 1068 - Lands held in adverse possession; issuance of patent; reservation of minerals; conflicting claims | U.S. Code | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute
Now it will be trivial to show that the attempt by Bundy and his folks doesn't meet the requirements of the statute to be a good faith peaceable attempt, but doing so will take a tiny bit more than saying that adverse possession is unavailable against the federal government. Plus the defense may give up more than is gained because of the twenty year period required for adverse possession to vest. Are they going to admit to an intent to occupy the facilities for at least twenty years?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-03-2016 5:16 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 194 of 254 (793517)
10-31-2016 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Diomedes
10-31-2016 10:09 AM


Re: Why it is important
We shouldn't have been pushing a constitutional amendment against gay marriage.
Lol!! We who?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Diomedes, posted 10-31-2016 10:09 AM Diomedes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 198 of 254 (815421)
07-20-2017 2:22 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by vimesey
07-20-2017 1:50 AM


Re: Bundys victims of Constitution-violating government tyranny
I would recommend that you read this UN report
You mean you don't have a video? That's your only shot.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by vimesey, posted 07-20-2017 1:50 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by vimesey, posted 07-20-2017 4:39 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 206 of 254 (815459)
07-20-2017 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by New Cat's Eye
07-20-2017 10:23 AM


Re: Bundys victims of Constitution-violating government tyranny
quote:
Immigrated from Siberia
I suppose this would be funny absent the crushing irony that suppresses the reflex for me at least.
Edited by NoNukes, : Correct spelling.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-20-2017 10:23 AM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(7)
Message 214 of 254 (815531)
07-21-2017 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by New Cat's Eye
07-20-2017 9:57 PM


Re: Bundys victims of Constitution-violating government tyranny
n principle, public land should be available to me to use for my general welfare without the state hassling me about it
What if your city spends money maintaining a lake as a public reservoir? Can you come by and use up the water for your for profit enterprise for free? What happens to my share of the water?
You can make up rule you want and call it a principle. But is this one justified? How about a principle that the atmosphere is free so anybody ought to be able to put pollutants in it?
There is no justification for a principle that property that is kept up at public expense can be confiscated by a single member of the public for free. Because we all cannot graze our animals, there is a rationing system in place involving money; money which is used to keep the place up. In this case, the federal government manages the property for the rest of us.
How about trees in a national forest? Do you think you ought to be able to cut those down without paying the public back? Why you and not someone else?
You fish on public property, but you buy a license to do that. If you don't you are going to be hassled.
The land is owned by the federal government. I can understand an argument that the state would be a better place to regulate the land. But I don't see that a for profit enterprise ought to able to just grab it up without paying the rest of us the value of what it is worth. That principle you are trying to invoke is called the stealing principle.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-20-2017 9:57 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-21-2017 9:39 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 223 of 254 (815591)
07-21-2017 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by New Cat's Eye
07-21-2017 9:39 AM


Re: Bundys victims of Constitution-violating government tyranny
If I can't use the land I own to feed myself, then in what way do I own it?
You have the same say on how the land is used as you do a fighter jet bought with public money.
You own the land in a similar way that you own a piece of a company when you own stock in it.
You own the land with hundreds of millions of the rest of us; you can petition the federal government for what the rules are for its use. At least you don't have to check with all of us first.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-21-2017 9:39 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-21-2017 2:25 PM NoNukes has replied

  
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