Even if there was a Designer, does it matter?

Ofcourse. For all sorts of reasons. Credit being the first.First you need to understand information, and how it qualifies as mind-blowingly brilliant design, far beyond human-design. (I recommend, "In the beginning was information" by Dr Werner Gitt).Ofcourse I could go into all of the reasons as to why it matters if there is a designer.If God exists, no matter what anybody says - what He says counts most, and what He says that will happen, will happen.So if you want to know why we exist, why we continue to exist and what will happen after death, if anything, then all of these questions are acceptable. Also if you want to know how the universe will end up.I think the burden of proof is on those saying it doesn't matter, because the full induction of human history is 100% evidence that it TOTALLY matters to people.P.s. Why on earth would a person that believes in Christ, want to ask such a question anyway? If you have experienced the power of the Holy Spirit, been born again etc...why is your theism no different from atheism? To what end does your question glorify God?Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

Hi Para'You're not being specific enough, in that I do not believe it would follow that "we" would be wrong or bunk.It's a bit of a compositional illusion.Think about it. Natural selection is not bunk, mutations are not bunk, even speciation is not bunk, all of the facts "you guys" discovered are not bunk.All of the errors of materialist's evolution-ideology are logical ones, not scientific or factual.It's that there is no logical filter. For that reason, favouring nature alone, though it is as fallacious as the GOTG, is ignored.You have to figure it out objectively, and that is not an easy task. But advise starting with thinking about the very base-assumptions, such as natural versus metaphysical.Not only are there material causes, but perhaps motivational ones. And if this is ignored - what does that mean pertaining to your inferences?For example, if you accepted a premise of a motivational cause, could you infer, for example, abiogenesis?The fact is Para', is that all of the accumulated knowledge and all of the wise heads on earth, still do not give us omniscience.The scientific mind is humble, saying; "we shall procede cautiously and tentatively". All mikey requests is that you take that admirable trait you employ for the units, and apply it to the whole.Ultimately our divisions are ideological.

I believe it is then relevant to ask, to what end do you ask the question?Are you therefore, for example, saying He does not matter?I think the designer matters more.Afterall, without the painter you don't get the painting, and it is an insult to not give the painter the credit.I don't believe the creation is greater than the one Whom made it. Do you?P.s. If you don't want to give your personal beliefs on the matter, that's ok.

That's not an objective statement. Yes, asking the question again as an answer, isn't an answer. That's just an arrogant statement.It is a truism that the designer matters. For as I said - without the painter there is no painting.All of th skills, powers, brilliance, and thought, beauty of the creation etc... tell us things about the designer. (Dn't mention the problem of evil and suffering please, it is an insult to my intelligence, and is not my point).Therefore, if we deduce these amazing things from the design, that tell us about the designer, then the creation is just matter.Here's some more logic to back up what I say;If you create artwork, would I ask does it matter if there was an artist? No, nobody would. (Reductio ad absurdum)because the whole point of the creation is to convey something of the Creator.If you have some reasons why my reasonings are faulty, then I'll be glad to hear them, but it seems the designer does matter, certainly.

The radio-example is not at all equal. Even a painting, is not at all adequate to compare with the universe.Who cares what we apreciate. You will have to be more specific, as to what you now mean by, "does it matter?"For example, it matters to me, that someone painted a picture, because I, as a painter, can apreciate the effort and care it took, but to a schoolboy it might not "matter", it might be something to throw food at for fun or paint a moustache on.Also, as a follower of Christ (claim to be), I would say that a human being matters more than a rabbit, because a human is made in the image of God, whereas evolution would have us believe that a fly is equal to a human.It seems a subjective question, yet you seem to require an objective answer.I can only think of information being processed. Information means that you require more than matter itself. This would mean that that the relevance of the Creator is the relevance of the person that creates a PC, because without the intelligent mind of the respective designers, you don't get anything.Logically this indirectly favours a designer "mattering", but for a person like you Jar, no offense, but I doubt very much that you could value anything I could offer anyway.Bye for now.

You're simply re-asserting the same things.As for evolution, it is true that objectively it follows logically that a fly has the same value as a human and/or no value, like a human.If you don't believe me, believe your dear old mate Richard Dawkins, who says that the universe is indifferent, meaning value is subjective.So then, are you asking my subjective value of God? If not - you have to fairly give an example of what would make the designer, "matter".For example, if I was arguing that pigs don't fly and it is stupid to believe they do - my reasonable duty is to qualify what would diminish my argument.In this case, evidence of a pig flying.You don't seem to want an answer. I gave the information example. Information requires more than matter. DNA contains code and syntax (nucleotides), semantics,(arrangement), pragmatics and apobetics resulting in the synthesized and processed result.An example is the difference between scrawling on a piece of paper and writing. They both contain the same amount of paper and ink - therefore logically, the designer "matters" because He is a vital part. He himself is the difference between the scrawl and the writing. He is the vital, and therefore scientifically and logically meaningful element, any way you cut it.That's my views on it, thanks for your time. Kind regards, mike.

If there is a designer, then if you, for example, are a serial killer, it won't change, perhaps, the outcome. Someone causally might be murdered, but there is an eternal weight to what you do, if there is a designer, because you will answer to Him.It seems to me that Jar is saying that it doesn't matter physically, in the sense that it doesn't change events in the universe.But the bible clearly says that God holds the universe together, and is active in His creation.For example, when I prayed at a time of trouble, and felt the presence of God heal me, if the designer did not matter, then that would not matter.But ofcourse it matters. What would have happened in our lives without the designer's help?It only seems to not matter to those who are without God, that have not been given the gift of faith, but only have ideologies, or political opinions, etc....people that live for this world, and hold no genuine value in God, and see Him as not mattering.To the person that has never had truly life-changing faith, they can't comprehend God. To them, god is just a religious term, because He has not affected their lives.Here is an example of a true saving-faith, that changes life. Boy does it matter!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcOvWGuQTow&playnext=1&li...You see, if you REALLY DO believe in God - nothing else matters. This is why Paul gave up everything, saying that we are the most pitiable of people, if Christ was not crucified and raised.Keep up the good work, Philip.

It's not that I'm conflating anything, jarry. I believe you've misunderstood.
(Could you please call me mike. I call myself mikey because I belittle myself, but when you say it it's condescending. I don't know if you're aware of that though.)I've gave you opportunities to do the following for purposes of clarity;1. Define what you mean by "matters". (For example, if the universe can't carry on without the designer's maintenance, does the designer "matter", therefore, objectively speaking? If not - what does? Define it so we can qualify something, otherwise you can sit back in your chair and just say, "it has nothing to do with the subject", all day long. Anybody can do that about any subject.2. I gave examples of something "mattering", both subjective and objective examples, because I am in the dark as to what you mean by "matters".It seems no suggestion whatsoever would satisfy you, which means you are not asking anything, you already simply believe that a designer does not matter, no matter what sound reasoning is put forward. Yet where are your reasons as to why He does not matter?As for your plumber examples, they do not EQUATE to a life-changing experience.There is no equivalence between a man changing a car tyre, and the universe not existing, or a life being changed dramatically.If you could elaborate more as to why a designer does not matter, then that would be useful because then I could understand your line of reasoning. So far, it just seems you are asking the question and assuming the default truth that a designer does not matter.Example;Do pigs matter.Right, nobody has told me so there are no reasons so far that I can see why a pig matters.Well, logically that doesn't mean that pigs do not matter. It just means nobody has satisfied your request because you are rigging it so that they can't.Perhaps you could point me to a post, that explains your position more, in this lengthy thread? I will also re-read the O.P. to see if I have misunderstood anything. Apologies if I have.

In other words; no mike, I won't define what I mean or elaborate or answer those requests.You are compelled by opinion, you have no energy for reason. I didn't have cold chills. "We", being the operative word.Who cares what "we" see. How will that change that design in organisms is a truism?Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

You have not defined "matters".If you punch me in the face it, "matters" because it hurts and will cause me damage. If God does not exist, then the universe will be unable to keep itself together, therefore it "matters". I read the thread, and lots of people, most of them atheists, gave some compelling answers.Jar, I'm not going to badger you into relenting. I'm not arrogant enough to demand that you change your mind, I simply think very differently than you.
We shall leave it here. All the best. Kind regards, mike.