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Author Topic:   Even if there was a Designer, does it matter?
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 179 of 214 (598870)
01-03-2011 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by rueh
01-03-2011 11:53 AM


Re: Hysterical footnotes
rueh writes:
But these are all things that we have everyday experience with. Do you believe that your analogy holds true for something that we have no experience with. For example if we were to find a piece of alien technology? Wouldn't discerning the identity of that designer be a priority for those investigating? Wouldn't knowing the identity lead to further areas of investigation? I believe the same is true for our hypothetical designer of life.
This appears to be faulty logic.
First you discount anything that "we have everyday experience with" and then you include "life".
We have everyday experience with life.
Your question "Do you believe that your analogy holds true for something that we have no experience with." is not relevent to life as we have experience of it.
Jar's analogy may or may not work with alien technology, but we are not talking about alien technology.
Life is not "alien technology" or "something that we have no experience with", therefore your argument doesn't hold.
Edited by Panda, : formatting
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by rueh, posted 01-03-2011 11:53 AM rueh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by rueh, posted 01-03-2011 3:04 PM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 191 of 214 (598915)
01-03-2011 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by rueh
01-03-2011 3:04 PM


Re: Hysterical footnotes
rueh writes:
I thought that for this debate we were assuming that the designer in some form or fashion does indeed exist and is responsible for life as we know it.
Correction: the designer in some form or fashion [did] indeed exist and [was] responsible for life as we know it.
Else your logic would be:
Was there a designer of the radio? Yes.
Who was the designer? Guglielmo Marconi*.
Therefore Guglielmo Marconi exists.
Which is obviously false.
You cannot argue from "There was a designer." to "A designer still exists.".
The fact that Guglielmo Marconi once existed is just an interesting footnote.
rueh writes:
In which case being able to investigate the "how" of the designer creating life is just as much tied into the "who" or "why".
Have you tried answering those questions in relation to (e.g.) radio?
Who designed the radio? Guglielmo Marconi - historical footnote.
Why did he design the radio? No-one really knows or cares. He probably needed a radio.
How did he design the radio? The actual process that happened in his head? No-one really knows or cares.
The actual physical design is all anyone cares about and that is there before our eyes.
Knowing who the designer was (or why he did it) does not help us understand radios.
*I realise that Guglielmo Marconi didn't "design the radio" but for clarity it will do as an example.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by rueh, posted 01-03-2011 3:04 PM rueh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by rueh, posted 01-05-2011 7:47 AM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 196 of 214 (599166)
01-05-2011 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by rueh
01-05-2011 7:47 AM


Re: Hysterical footnotes
rueh writes:
Well Jar in the OP never specified exactly which designer we are talking about. It could have been a designer that accomplished their work and have then been absent in their creation. Or it could be a designer that does have active control over their creation. Since it's not specified any options proposed for the designer bear just as much weight as every other option.
An intervening god is not just a designer.
You have moved the discussion from: "Is there any value to the concept of a Designer beyond a historical footnote?"
to: "Is there any value to the concept of a Designer and a manipulator beyond a historical footnote?"
That is a very different question.
rueh writes:
The elephant in the room that everyone has been ignoring is the fact that what we think we know about the processes of life could be completely wrong if life is ever discovered to have been designed. We would need to revamp how we investigate life and knowing who the designer is and the how and why of their designing could certainly have a role to play with further investigation.
I notice that you skipped the second half of my previous reply that addressed your insistence on the importance of 'Who'.
'Who' is not useful; only 'What' is useful.
Since you are so certain that 'Who' is useful, can you give an example?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by rueh, posted 01-05-2011 7:47 AM rueh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by rueh, posted 01-05-2011 10:46 AM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 202 of 214 (599195)
01-05-2011 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by rueh
01-05-2011 10:46 AM


Re: Hysterical footnotes
rueh writes:
An intervening designer is a "type" of designer. The OP never specifies which type of designer we are dealing with. It just says designer in general. I am just proposing that the type of designer whether it is active, inactive can have implications beyond footnotes.
The only reason that the 'Who' would be important is because of the intervening, not the design.
The OP asked: Is the designer important?
You are answering the question: Is the intervener important?
If you want to conflate the two, then that would be a different question to what was being asked.
rueh writes:
For example if the god of Judaism was found to be the designer. Than knowing who designed the universe could have serious ramifications since living your life not in accordance with god's will (what ever that may be) could affect how you spend eternity.
If you want to make this hypothetical situation as bland as it can be. Than yes you can narrow its scope down far enough that the identity of the designer can have no impact on scientific understanding or humanities response. However the type of designer proposed has a direct correlation with the amount of impact that the identity of the designer will have on people.
What you are actually asking is "What if life was designed by a god who was immortal and omniscient and omnipotent and took a keen interest in humans and spoke to some of them and punished those he didn't like and gave eternal life to those he liked and changed things whenever he wanted, and, etc....?"
If you want to massively expand a question and leave behind any resemblance to the original question, then that would leave you with a different question to the one being asked.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by rueh, posted 01-05-2011 10:46 AM rueh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by rueh, posted 01-05-2011 4:12 PM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 205 of 214 (599224)
01-05-2011 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by rueh
01-05-2011 4:12 PM


Re: Hysterical footnotes
rueh writes:
No I am merely suggesting one type of designer. One which many folks here already have experience with and can relate to. Jar suggested a purely hypothetical situation with no constraints on who the designer is or how they operated. As such any amount of speculation can be added to this to go from no importance to massive importance. If Jar wants to confine his hypothetical situation down to such a small group of possible designers with no input since creation and that operated with in known processes of biology, chemistry and physics. Than I would concede that their identity would have no bearing on how scientific investigation is conducted. But if the identity is left up to any possible answer, than the importance of the designer can have huge repercussions on science and everyday life.
If you make up some fantastical example that has no basis in reality, then I suppose it could be possible to argue that the designer's identity is important.
But, back in reality, the designer's identity doesn't matter much.
Can you think of a real-world example where knowing a designer's identity is useful?
On a side note:
ID is meant to be science.
If you start introducing the supernatural into the equation then that would not be science.
What you are doing is exactly what ID proponents deny is their intention: using ID to re-label religion as science.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by rueh, posted 01-05-2011 4:12 PM rueh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by arachnophilia, posted 01-05-2011 7:57 PM Panda has replied
 Message 210 by rueh, posted 01-06-2011 7:50 AM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 207 of 214 (599227)
01-05-2011 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by arachnophilia
01-05-2011 7:57 PM


Re: Hysterical footnotes
arachnophilia writes:
patents and copyright law?
Give it 100 years and it's just an historical footnote.
I suspect that the whole of creation is now out of copyright.
{abe}I think that would come under jar's OP criteria "Product Liability suits".
Edited by Panda, : typos
Edited by Panda, : abe

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by arachnophilia, posted 01-05-2011 7:57 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by arachnophilia, posted 01-05-2011 9:50 PM Panda has seen this message but not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 213 of 214 (599281)
01-06-2011 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by rueh
01-06-2011 7:50 AM


Re: Hysterical footnotes
rueh writes:
Well with that I agree. In reality there is no designer that has been identified and no scientific theory makes note of a need for a designer. However if one was ever found to be true. You can bet your ass you would have a million people proclaiming why their choosen identity of the designer matters and others don't.
People choosing the identity of the designer and then claiming it matters is what already happens.
The question asked by jar was to address this obsession with who the designer was (directed to IDists because of their focus on having a designer).
rueh writes:
Real world examples? No, not off hand. However for this thought experiment. I believe that the identity of the designer plays the most important role in both religious and philosophical aspects.
If a being designed all life and then died, people would carry on regardless.
"But who designed the designer?" they would ask.
"You cannot disprove my god!" they would cry.
Very little would change.
People are interested in their god because of the other things that their deity offers (e.g. eternal life).
No-one would worship a 'god' of design only.
And people happily worship gods that didn't design.
rueh writes:
ID is just one type of field where a designer is required and I didn't think that we were talking about ID designers specifically.
Well, the OP is based on the question "Even if ID was true, is there any value to the concept of a Designer beyond a historical footnote or in the case of Product Liability suits?" and this thread is in the 'Intelligent Design' forum.
rueh writes:
I just wanted to play devil’s advocate because I felt that jar was wrong on this point of identity not mattering for the designer.
Devil's advocaat?! Again you mention religion!
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by rueh, posted 01-06-2011 7:50 AM rueh has not replied

  
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