|
Author
|
Topic: Is the bible authoritive and truly inspired?
|
Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
|
|
Message 7 of 386 (517913)
08-03-2009 8:51 AM
|
Reply to: Message 5 by Peg
08-03-2009 5:52 AM
|
|
Re: Who Are The Authors?
Lets start with Moses Nowhere in these books is there any mention that they are written by Moses. There are also many verses obviously not written by him. Numbers 12:3
quote:
(Now Moses was a very humble man, more humble than anyone else on the face of the earth.)
There are also references that show that he was a long gone prophet. Exodus 11:3
quote:
10 There has not arisen a prophet since in Israel like Moses, whom Yahweh knew face to face, 11 in all the signs and the wonders, which Yahweh sent him to do in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh, and to all his servants, and to all his land,
Also, there are anachronisms a plenty. In the book of judges. Judges 18:27-29 to be exact. We learn that the city of Laish was conquered and changed to Dan. Judges 18:29
quote:
They named it Dan after their forefather Dan, who was born to Israel”though the city used to be called Laish
But in Genesis 14:14
quote:
When Abram heard that his relative had been taken captive, he called out the 318 trained men born in his household and went in pursuit as far as Dan
How could Moses mention Dan when it didn't exist yet? I would like to acknowledge that this line of reasoning is derived from "The Rejection of Pascals Wager: A Skeptics guide to the Bible and the Historical Jesus" by Paul Tobin
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 5 by Peg, posted 08-03-2009 5:52 AM | | Peg has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 324 by DPowell, posted 10-07-2010 12:47 AM | | Theodoric has not replied |
|
Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
|
|
|
Message 18 of 386 (518380)
08-05-2009 3:11 PM
|
Reply to: Message 12 by Peg
08-05-2009 7:26 AM
|
|
Re: Man is the Authority
Jesus and his disciples were greek and hebrew speaking. This is why the Septuagint is a valuable translation because they could read and write in both languages so the Septuagint would have been accurately translated. How do you know this? At that period the Jews of that area spoke Aramaic. Aramaic is not Hebrew. It is a Semitic language like Hebrew but it is not Hebrew. A good analogy is French and Spanish. Hebrew was more the language of the priesthood and scholars. It was not a language of the humble classes. As for Greek, I think it is safe to assume most Jews of that period were at least familiar with Greek to be at least conversant.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 12 by Peg, posted 08-05-2009 7:26 AM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 20 by Peg, posted 08-06-2009 7:56 AM | | Theodoric has replied |
|
Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
|
|
|
Message 22 of 386 (518456)
08-06-2009 8:06 AM
|
Reply to: Message 20 by Peg
08-06-2009 7:56 AM
|
|
Re: Man is the Authority
the new testament was written in greek by the Jewish diciples/apostles, You have presented no evidence that the new testament was written by the original apostles. All you have is tradition, a tradition that modern scholarship shows is not correct. How can the bible be authoritative and inspired when it is impossible to identify the actual authors?
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 20 by Peg, posted 08-06-2009 7:56 AM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 25 by Peg, posted 08-06-2009 11:54 PM | | Theodoric has replied |
|
Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
|
|
|
Message 27 of 386 (518645)
08-07-2009 12:40 AM
|
Reply to: Message 25 by Peg
08-06-2009 11:54 PM
|
|
Re: Man is the Authority
how do you know that modern scholars are correct? Present your evidence for the traditional authors. I am confident I can present evidence that shows that your beliefs are based on tradition and nothing else.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 25 by Peg, posted 08-06-2009 11:54 PM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 30 by Peg, posted 08-07-2009 8:13 AM | | Theodoric has replied |
|
Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
|
|
|
Message 32 of 386 (518684)
08-07-2009 8:52 AM
|
Reply to: Message 30 by Peg
08-07-2009 8:13 AM
|
|
Re: Man is the Authority
This isn't evidence. It is just assertions with no references or sources.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 30 by Peg, posted 08-07-2009 8:13 AM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 33 by Peg, posted 08-07-2009 9:00 AM | | Theodoric has replied |
|
Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
|
|
|
Message 34 of 386 (518694)
08-07-2009 9:55 AM
|
Reply to: Message 33 by Peg
08-07-2009 9:00 AM
|
|
Re: Man is the Authority
We have been warned this is off topic already. I would love to talk about this and see you biblical evidence for the traditional authorships of the bible. Does anyone know if the there is a topic already on authorship of the bible? I looked and did not see one. If not I will try to get around to starting one.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 33 by Peg, posted 08-07-2009 9:00 AM | | Peg has not replied |
|
Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
|
|
|
Message 48 of 386 (518985)
08-10-2009 8:36 AM
|
Reply to: Message 44 by Peg
08-09-2009 11:45 PM
|
|
Re: Jewish Canon
I believe this is what the scribes may have been doing in the case of the city of Dan. Of course there are no original scriptures written by Moses own hand today, that would be impossible. But the scribes who made copies of Moses original did make these sorts of changes as the need arose. So even if the bible was authoritative and truly inspired at one time it has been altered by humans. Therefore, we can not truly tell what is the original word of god.
What it does is show that the scribes who were making copies of the Pentacheut were keeping it up to date. Its similar today. As words in our language change, so do they change those words in newer translations.... im sure you've read a king james version of the bible for instance, The old english they used back then is not longer used by us so they make new versions in the language we understand. Another example is that of the word 'Shambles' In the king james version this word is in a NT verse about the local Meat Market where Paul was preaching. Shambles is an old english word that means slaughter house. But today we dont use that word anymore so the new translations use the word 'meat market' instead of 'shambles' Ok I am with you on this. Now show me an earlier text(which you claim must have existed) that shows that originally had Laish instead of Dan. If you cannnot all you are doing is trying to make some sort of reality fit your beliefs. Nothing more.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 44 by Peg, posted 08-09-2009 11:45 PM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 50 by Peg, posted 08-10-2009 6:31 PM | | Theodoric has replied |
|
Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
|
|
|
Message 51 of 386 (519033)
08-10-2009 6:41 PM
|
Reply to: Message 50 by Peg
08-10-2009 6:31 PM
|
|
Re: Jewish Canon
how did the bible writer know that the city's original name was Laish? The writer obviously did know this, otherwise he would have written it as the city of Dan and not identified its original name. Ok so now you are saying Judges was written before Genesis? Looks like we may be getting somewhere. I think you have tortured your logic into a corner.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 50 by Peg, posted 08-10-2009 6:31 PM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 53 by Peg, posted 08-10-2009 10:15 PM | | Theodoric has replied |
|
Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
|
|
|
Message 54 of 386 (519060)
08-10-2009 10:44 PM
|
Reply to: Message 53 by Peg
08-10-2009 10:15 PM
|
|
Re: Jewish Canon
if the writer of judges was able to make a distinction between what its name was at the time, and what it used to be, and the fact that he included both names in his writing, why couldnt Moses do the same. Do you even think of what you write? You are no longer making any sense. Judges 18:27-29
quote:
Then they took what Micah had made and the priest who had belonged to him, and came to (A)Laish, to a people quiet and secure, and struck them with the edge of the sword; and they burned the city with fire. And there was no one to deliver them, because it was far from Sidon and they had no dealings with anyone, and it was in the valley which is near Beth-rehob. And they rebuilt the city and lived in it. (They called the name of the city Dan, after the name of Dan their father who was born in Israel; however, the name of the city formerly was Laish.
This account is placed in the bible right after the death of Samson. According to the chronology in the bible Samson was around 400 years after Moses. Now look at this. Genesis 14:14
quote:
When Abram heard that his relative was taken captive, he led forth his trained men, born in his house, 318, and pursued as far as Dan.
Are you saying Moses wrote about something that was going to happen 200-400 years in the future?
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 53 by Peg, posted 08-10-2009 10:15 PM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 58 by Peg, posted 08-12-2009 7:23 AM | | Theodoric has not replied |
|
Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
|
|
|
Message 63 of 386 (519193)
08-12-2009 9:16 AM
|
Reply to: Message 60 by Peg
08-12-2009 7:42 AM
|
|
Re: Jewish Canon
The name is A Greek name. The name chaldean did not exist until at least 8th century BCE. Please explain the following and some evidence please that verifies this.
Sir Leonard Woolley is an archeologist who made excavations there and dated the site to be around 1943 BCE. I am not even sure what this means. The empire was very large. DO you mean he excavated key cities? There is no doubt there was continuous occupation in Mesopotamia from a very early period. Di he find something to identify a particular site as Chaldean? More info please. ABE I see you meant he excavated "Ur of the Chaldees". Yes, but the name is anachronistic. Biblical archaeologists continued to use that misnomer, but the term is anachronistic.
Here is on source to show the name is a anachronistic.
quote:
Ur is known in the Bible as Ur of the Chaldees. This biblical name, Ur of the Chaldees, refers to the Chaldeans, who settled the area about 900 B.C
Edited by Theodoric, : Added more info
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 60 by Peg, posted 08-12-2009 7:42 AM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 66 by Peg, posted 08-15-2009 7:20 AM | | Theodoric has not replied |
|
Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
|
|
|
Message 64 of 386 (519196)
08-12-2009 9:23 AM
|
Reply to: Message 62 by Peg
08-12-2009 8:03 AM
|
|
Re: Jewish Canon
so it is possible that in ancient times all the land and people occupying the southern portion of Babylon, were known as the chaldeans because the region itself was called chaldea This term is from the 8th century BCE. The people that were the Chaldeans did not settle Ur until that time.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 62 by Peg, posted 08-12-2009 8:03 AM | | Peg has not replied |
|
Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
|
|
|
Message 71 of 386 (519744)
08-16-2009 7:33 PM
|
Reply to: Message 68 by Peg
08-15-2009 11:59 PM
|
|
Re: Jewish Canon
i thought Babylonian was synonymous with Chaldean Well you are wrong.
i could be wrong of course...it could be that as the scrolls were copied and the names of places and people changed, the translators made certain adjustments. Or maybe Moses never wrote it or maybe a space alien did.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 68 by Peg, posted 08-15-2009 11:59 PM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 72 by Peg, posted 08-17-2009 3:54 AM | | Theodoric has not replied |
|
Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
|
|
|
Message 80 of 386 (519790)
08-17-2009 8:43 AM
|
Reply to: Message 74 by Peg
08-17-2009 4:34 AM
|
|
Re: Jewish Canon
For example, many nations live in Australia, but all are called 'australians' not because of their race, but because they live on the land called 'australia' But if there were purported writings by James Cook saying he had charted the coast of "Australia" we would know that they were not legitimate writings. He called it New South Wales. Prior to that the Dutch new it as New Holland.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 74 by Peg, posted 08-17-2009 4:34 AM | | Peg has not replied |
|
Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
|
|
|
Message 84 of 386 (519898)
08-18-2009 9:21 AM
|
Reply to: Message 83 by Peg
08-18-2009 6:49 AM
|
|
Re: Jewish Canon
the fact that he didnt write the copies, which began to be produced after his death, does not detract from the messag or the truthfulness of the accounts. It only matters that the law given to him was recorded and copies of it were made. So you have finally come to the point to admit he did not write the first books of the bible?
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 83 by Peg, posted 08-18-2009 6:49 AM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 86 by Peg, posted 08-18-2009 8:30 PM | | Theodoric has replied |
|
Theodoric
Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.4
|
|
|
Message 87 of 386 (519980)
08-18-2009 8:42 PM
|
Reply to: Message 86 by Peg
08-18-2009 8:30 PM
|
|
Re: Jewish Canon
there has been a lot of talk about the copyists and who they were and how they worked. Ok maybe we are getting somewhere. You admit these copyists made some changes. For example, changed Babylon to Chaldea? Correct? That is what you admitted to a couple posts ago. If the words were truly authoritative and inspired, how do you know what parts are original and what parts are changes from the copyists? Chaldea is an obvious anachronism, why do you not think the copyists would change something else or make an error? Or were they inspired too?
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 86 by Peg, posted 08-18-2009 8:30 PM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 89 by Peg, posted 08-18-2009 11:19 PM | | Theodoric has replied |
|
™ Version 4.2