9-11 Conspiracy

There as many different opinions on OBL as there are people in this world. It matters not what people think of OBL, whether Muslim or not. It only matters what history reflects him to be: the mastermind and enabler of the mass murder of thousands of people. Case closed. However, the same could be said of some well-known Americans (and even Presidents) as well i.e. Andrew Jackson (the virtual eradication of whole tribes of American Indians) Many but not all. Muslims, Arab or otherwise, have as many different opinions on this matter as many Americans. Some support OBL and some don't. It is not a 100% concensus. How do I know? I have been over there myself as well i.e Iraq, Bahrain, UAE and the like and have talked to the people overthere as well.Unfortunately "the West" has as invested so much, both bad and good, in the Middle East, that it is almost impossible for us to extract ourselves out of the cluster-fck over there. Agreed. As do most of the Muslims in Iraq and other Arab countries as well. They are as tired of this feud as us non-Arabs. However, the difference is that they have nowhere else to go. So many will fight to the death to protect there way of life and real or perceived injustices.However, we cannot just walk away and let the Middle East dissolve into the chaos that Bush and Cheney started.Just my thoughts from a fellow serviceman.BTW, I wish the best for you and other serviceman and women serving with you over there and hope you have a safe end to your deployment and joyous return home.Sincerely,Pale Blue Dot
aka Devil's AdvocateEdited by Pale Blue Dot, : No reason given.Edited by Pale Blue Dot, : No reason given.Edited by Pale Blue Dot, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

And that would make us better than OBL and other terrorists and meglomaniac murderers how?I do understand your bitterness. It is hard not to be bitter when many of the people we are "trying to help" are turning around and trying to kill us. This is a lesson we should have learned from Vietnam.Unfortunately, we keep electing the same idiots to the white house who haven't a clue of how to run an effective war, who will not listen to the Generals and Admirals who do have the right experience and who spend more time on vacation than doing there damn job. If people were not dying it would almost be laughable how inane this predictament is.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This was more of a clarification for lurkers and other readers than for yourself. Navy IA 2006-07, C-RAM.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Hi Onifre,Good talking again, even if we may not agree on everything. Not all muslims accept this opinion of OBL. Some are more sympathetic than others just as some Americans are more sympathetic of Bush and Cheney than others. Some just view OBL and Al-Qaeda as a extremists punks who are feeding the fire of discontent and making the situation over there worse. The vast majority Muslims just want the fighting to stop so they can live there lives in peace. Many countries in the Middle East are run by capitalist-centered regimes i.e. OPEC, the multi-trillion dollar banking systems of Bahrain, UAE and Saudi Arabia. I would venture this is more of a religious and cultural war than a war against capitalism or a specifical financial system. I am not an advocate of the forced statehood of Israel back in 1946 either. However, I am sure the original natives of America could say the same for the British colonialists in the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries as well. Israel is now a recognized and soverign country. We need to move forward on these issues not backwards. We need to fix the problems of today as well as recognising the mistakes of the past. BTW, the state of Israel was not only supported by the US. Great Britian and several other powers of the West were involved as well.The problem is we are entrenched in the Middle East and we need to fix the "fuck ups" we created over there. In no way do I advocate why or how we overthrew the Iraqi regime right after 9-11. IMHO, we should never have picked the fight with Iraq as our hands were full already with chasing Al-Queda in Afghanistan and the outer reaches of Pakistan.However, that is the past, we have to address the situation on the ground in the middle east as it exists TODAY. If we pull out completely out of Afghanistan now, that entire area WILL destabilize and the Taliban and Al-Qaeda WILL rebound even stronger than what existed before 9-11 in Afghanistan, Pakistan and more than likely spread to other regions as well. The only solution is to empower the Afghan military and the Karzai regime and work alongside them until they are ready to take over force protection and security while conducting a phased withdrawel of US forces like we are conducting in Iraq. We also must empower the indigenous people of these countries to stand up to the extremism of Al-Qaeda and the Taliban on there own. We must lead through diplomacy and our example. You cannot spread democracy at the point of the sword. This is Obama's and our current military leadership's approach to this situation and mine as well. No question in my mind. That is how many everyday citizens as well as the hardened Muslim "extremists" view America's as well as many of the other Western powers aka GB's, France's and Israel's occupation of there countries. How would you like it if Russia or China invaded America and enacted martial law for decades at a time. The middle east is the most contested piece of real estate on the globe in the entire history of the human species. Totally agree. Nothing new here. And you are totally correct in your assessment here. Now you just need to educate the rest of the American population of this. Good luck Edited by Pale Blue Dot, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Not all of us military people go over to the Middle East wanting to kill innocent men, women and children. Look up the term 'blowback' (here is a good articles which explains this phenomena well, as well as our current predictament in the ME: Blowback) and you will understand what I mean. Our very presence over there fans the flames of Islamic extermism. Unfortunately, like I said in my preceding post if we pull 100% of our forces completely out of the Middle East, irrevocable damage would occur and this entire region could destabilize. We are in a catch-22. Presidents do have the power to send our troops into the battlefield as shown during our actions during WWII. The read question is: Who do you want sending your sons and daughters into harms way? So was WWII an industry? Should we have not fought this battle? How about the Gulf War of the 1990's? There is a need for our military. The question is, are we employing it for the right reasons. Bullshit. Are you saying Collin Powell, Tommy Franks, Normon Schwarzkopf and other leading Generals and Admirals want a never-ending war? You got to be out of your mind. I have personally served under several Commodores and Admirals. They have families. Many have sons and daughters serving in the military are themselves in harm's way. You really think all they care about is the perpetuating the "military industrial complex"? However, I do agree that some of the people in the past who have "led" this country have done irrevokable harm to are security, reputation of our country and military as well as families and friends of serviceman themselves killed in action. Agreed. Question and analyze the background and intentions of these people before they even get elected.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

So again, was this war (WWII) not justified on our (USA and the Allies) part? Or should we have just let Germany, Japan and Italy wreck devastation while we stuck our head in the sand to appease the Monroe doctrine.BTW, I am dead set against trying to compare the current situation in the ME and our "war against terrorism" with the conflicts of WWII. They are totally different creatures with different causes and plot lines.I believe the first Gulf War was justified to protect the sovereign rights of the recognized country of Kuwait and to thwart the power grab by Saddam Hussein in 1990. This is further substantiated by the fact that a massive allied coalition of over 35 countries participated in this operation including nearly all the Muslim countries of the Middle East such as Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, UAE, Morroco, Oman, Pakistan, Qatar, Afghanistan and Turkey and our most strongest allies such as the UK, France, Canada, Italy, Spain and Australia.The current war against Iraq I do not believe was adequately justified and this is reflected by the fact that only a hand full of allied countries have provided troops to this conflict in its 6 year history. Only 4 contries provided troops to initially invade Iraq and overthrow Sadam Hussein in 2003: (US [248,0000 troops], UK [45,000 troops], Australia [2000 troops], and Poland [194 troops]) compared with the 35 country coalition (of non-us 210,000+ troops) of the 7 month Gulf War (Aug 1990-Feb 1991). No Arab countries provided troops for the war in Iraq as opposed to the 10+ Arab countries which provided troops during the Gulf War.Most of the countries of the Iraqi coalition of 20 some countries were not involved in the initial invasion but rather only with the clean up, security and reconstruction afterwords. Of which almost 100% of these troops are from small European NATO countries (such as Albania, Azerbizon, Denmark, etc which are compelled by treaty to provide a minimal amount of troops or risk being expelled from NATO (for example Iceland provided 2 troops and Moldova provided 24) Multi-National Force - Iraq) and small pacific countries such as Tongo, South Korea and Singapore which are dependent on the USA for trade and military reasons for a total of 24,000 coalition troops (excluding the US & UK troops) during the last 6 years of the war in Iraq (Mar 2003 to present day) compared to the 210,000 coalition troops of the 7 month Gulf War (excluding the US & UK troops). There is a vast difference between these two conflicts and the current Iraq War "coalition" is a joke IMHO.BTW, I will take you up on the beer if we ever get a chance to meet Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Having read through both of your claims it seems like there was some cover-up of mistakes made during the 9-11 calamatity however it seems like these are cover-ups of mistakes made, not of a cover-up of a mass conspiracy by the government to self-inflict a calamity to induce us to go to war with Iraq and Afganistan. This is just my humble opinion from studying these issues on my own for the last 8 years and having intimate knowledge of how military intelligence and government/miltary operations work. America has been under direct and indirect attacks for the last 200+ years of its history. Threats of attack by Al-Qeada existed way before President Bush assumed office. I believe mistakes were made all the way back to President Reagan and even before which led up to and resulted in what occurred on 9-11. Again the term is called blowback. Our very presence and actions (as well as those of other non-Arab influences) for the last 50+ years in the middle east directly caused these events and poisoned the well of mutual respect between us and the Arabs of the ME. Bush and Cheney are just the last links in a long chain of incompetancy and negligence that resulted in 9-11. Oni I expect more from you. Why is the NIST report crap? Can you please explain in your own words and provide evidence to back up your claims. Then who is behind 9-11? OBL and his cronnies masterminded the attack but our negligence allowed it to occur. Totally agree with this one. We ouselves. indiectly, funded 9-11 and all the other mess happenning in the ME. If one studies the history of the last 50+ years of our involvement and influence in the ME, you will know that what I say is true. And you are right that the Bush family has seemed to be financially backing (at least indiectly) terrorists and dictators since G. W.'s grandfather Prescott's businesses were seized by the US government in October 1942 for not ceasing there financial connections with German buisnesses in the middle of WWII.Unfortunately both the conspiracy theorists, the general public and the media take a way too much simplistic and generalized view of 9-11 much less the rest of modern history. History exists in shades of grey, not in black and white. If fingers are being pointed at who caused 9-11 to occur we might be surprised at how many fingers will be pointed back to ourselves.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan