9-11 Conspiracy

Hi Oni,This whole business about "controlled demolition" strikes me as absurd to the highest degree. A controlled demolition isn't something that you can just set up easily. It requires days, even weeks of work on the building to be demolished. First they remove everything that is not nailed down; all the furniture and fittings. Then they remove a lot of the stuff that is nailed down; floors, ceilings, doors, partitions etc. Then the entire building is filled with cables connecting the explosives. These cables are substantial and highly visible. Finally, the explosives are put in place, not just in one site, but in multiple sites. The whole process is long and complicated and completely impossible to hide.It would be quite impossible to do all the necessary work in a building which housed thousands of workers without them noticing. It simply isn't realistic.In my opinion Richard Gage is nothing more than a self-serving lying asshole who is seeking to profit from tragedy.Mutate and Survive

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"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

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The "reputation" you speak of is only the opinion of the mainstream media. In much of the Muslim world OBL is held as a highly respected Islamic figure who wants nothing more than independance from Western control.

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So everybody else is to be criticised for getting their opinions from the media. You however, when you speak of Bin Laden's position in the Muslim world are basing the statement upon what exactly? Have you travelled the "Muslim world" and interviewed them all? Or are you getting your information from the media as well?I have a funny feeling that Bin Laden is viewed in a whole bunch of different ways throughout the Muslim world, including being viewed as the bloke responsible for 9/11.

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He is a great scapegoat, as was Hussein, and a perfect image to hate for the American public. But relatively speaking, the actions of the US in foreign affairs is worse than anything OBL is capable of doing, or has done.

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None of which is actually evidence that anyone else was responsible for 9/11.

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Further, the Bush/Cheney administration is notorious for lying, deceiving and covering up information. It is this type of image of them that leads many, like me, to doubt the crap that comes out of their mouths.

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So what? They are liars. That doesn't prove that they had anything to do with 9/11.

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This is only true if you accept what the media has told you.

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Whereas you apparently eschew all forms of media (except conspiracy theorist websites of course). Come off it Oni. You are as reliant on the media for your information as any of us.

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Provide proof that connects OBL and Al-Qaeda to the 911 attacks

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Er... Osama Bin Laden has claimed responsibility for the 9/11 attacks.

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Bush, Cheney and Rice, on national tv, said that NO admin could ever predicted planes would be used as weapons - That is a lie.

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And we should be surprised because? Bush, Cheney and Rice are all accomplished liars. We know that. They were simply lying because "No-one had anticipated an attack like this" sounds better than "An attack exactly like this was anticipated, but it still happened anyway. On our watch. Whoops. Sorry.". They were just covering their asses. Either that or they genuinely didn't know/remember that the idea was out there. Government is awfully big and, much as it would be nice to imagine otherwise, the reality is that no one person can fit more than a tiny fraction of all the available information into their head. There is nothing extraordinary about suggesting that they didn't know and there is certainly nothing extraordinary about suggesting that they told bare-faced lies in order to gain a short-term image boost.

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NORAD had plenty of warning but was not able to desipher what was real and what was being conducted as training. - Cheney was the highest official in a command capacity during the period of the actual attacks.

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In Dr. A's quote it says, which I'm assuming he got from an official source:

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"The first indication that the NORAD air defenders had of the second hijacked aircraft, United 175, came in a phone call from New York Center to NEADS at 9:03." - LIE

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Why does everything have to be a LIE (in capital letters no less)? Do people not simply fuck up in your world? That must be reassuring.

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This is a clear sign of someone in command fucking up. Who was in command that day? - Cheney

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Oh, they do fuck up after all. Of course cock up is not evidence of conspiracy. However much I despise Cheney, this in no way implicates him in any conspiracy. You don't even have a conspiracy to implicate him in. This is all just standard join-the-dots CT bullshit.

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There is plenty of evidence connecting General Ahmad to Omar Saeed Sheikh and Mohammad Atta.

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What, so Pakistani intelligence are corrupt? Oh say it isn't so!Even if true, all this proves is that there are close ties between Pakistani intelligence and Al Qaeda. Big deal. This is not news.

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The Congressional Joint Inquiry's 858-page report, published in 2003 with about 25 percent of the overall text redacted, fails to pursue, clarify or mention the allegations of Pakistani financing for the 9/11 plotters and the allegations of an ISI connection to al-Qaeda

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What is the relevance of this if Al Qaeda were not involved?

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And of course like all good cover-ups

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* The only person who could clarify this, Omar Saeed Sheikh, is sitting in death row in Pakistan.

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If you seriously think that the governments of the US and Pakistan are co-operating on some world-spanning conspiracy, you have lost touch with reality. Pakistan can't even co-operate with itself, let alone a foreign state that it has every reason to distrust and hate. Get a grip Oni.

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The biggest bullshit was the Bush/Cheney testimony to the 911 Commision.

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Of course. They were covering their own asses in order to make themselves look good, or at least not too bad. There is nothing mysterious about this; it is what politicians do every day. Bush probably lies ten times before breakfast. There is no mystery here.

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Bush and Cheney are at the helm of this cover-up, perhaps only to protect themselves from the their incompetency. Perhaps there's more to it.

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If you want to claim that you need to provide clear evidence. You haven't. You haven't because you can't.

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Their record of lying and covering up information should speak for itself

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Indeed it does. It speaks of them being liars and ass-coverers. What you seem to be implying is that this also suggests that they are conspirators who chose to massacre thousands of their own people for no apparent reason, or at the very least, are covering up for those who did. That is stretching it. It's also mildly offensive, even in the case of scumbags like Bush. If you are going to accuse people of heinous acts like these, you better have some strong evidence, otherwise it's just slander. You have no such evidence. All you have is join-the-dots.

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I'll admit I was having a little fun with the "controlled demolition" stuff

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Suggesting that your own government, US businessmen, even New York firemen (Silverstein was talking to the fire department when he said "pull", so they must have known about the explosives, right?) were involved in a conspiracy to murder thousands is fun to you? Sheesh. Have you tried sports? Or computer games? Or something that isn't seriously fucking sick?

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there could be more to the puzzle

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Indeed there could be. And there could be a leprechaun in my airing cupboard, but until I'm shown serious evidence suggesting that there might be, I'm not going to waste my time looking for him.The truth might be out there? You are starting to sound like a creationist.Mutate and Survive

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"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

Well, we are agreed on one thing;

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So, if people support the actions of the suicide bombers, who are representing Al-Qaeda, who is lead, allegedly by Bin Laden, then by default you are supporting Bin Ladens actions. This is all I meant by "them having a different opinon of Bin Laden than the West."

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Muslim fundies think Bin Laden is great. I agree with that. I fail to see though how any of this supports any conspiracy or cover up though. OBL is a Muslim fundamentalist extremist. Naturally, other Muslim fundamentalists think he kicks ass. They think he kicks ass because he was the guy responsible for 9/11, which they think was a brilliant idea. You just quoted Sam Harris' book! Last time I checked, books were part of the media. Unless you are using first hand information, you are as dependent on the media as any of us.

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But will you agree that he is only viewed in ONE way by the West?

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Not quite no. OBL is viewed pretty much unanimously as being a Muslim terrorist scumbag, but then, that's what he is; unless you are going to try and say that he bears no responsibility for any act of terror, which I can't imagine you are saying.Opinion does vary however about quite how closely OBL manages the day-to-day running of the "global Al Qaeda network". Some people view him as an international puppet-master, like some shitty Bond villain. My view is that OBL is more of a figurehead and fund-raiser. Whilst he is doubtless involved in planning some operations (as he most likely was for 9/11) he is probably only peripherally involved in worldwide terror campaigns.AQ itself is really only a reasonable term to use when applied to the terrorist groups in Afghanistan/Pakistan. Elsewhere in the world it is probably more of a loose affiliation or a kind of franchise. You can say that the London bombings were the work of AQ if you like (there are certainly links between the bombers and international terrorism), but that doesn't mean that OBL had any say in the matter or even knew of them.Nicities like this are often lost in over-simplistic media reporting, leaving some people with the impression that AQ is some monolithic worldwide organisation, with OBL as commander-in-chief. I don't think that is realistic.By the way; there are an awful lot of Muslims in "the West" and they have views of OBL and AQ that run the gamut from demonisation to idolisation.

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Nor was it meant to be. It was meant as a comparison to how the western media demonizes one person for henious acts, but says nothing about the others, equally, and sometimes much more, henious acts.

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Which has nothing to do with any 9/11 conspiracy. Bush and cheney are evil scumbags. So what? it doesn't mean that they were responsible for any conspiracy and it doesn't mean that they were responsible for any cover-up.

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In my opinion, they are the same, if not worse, than Bin Laden. But you'll never hear any US news media say this, nor could they ever dream of being that up-front to the public, because they'll lose their advertisers.

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Which has nothing to do with any 9/11 conspiracy. The poor state of US news media is not relevant, especially not to me. I live in Britain. I am well used to commentators comparing Bush to OBL.

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but I don't think Bin Laden was either, at least not without the support of some very powerful governments - governments who MAY have ties with the Bush family.

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Why would they need governments? they hijacked planes using box-cutters as weapons. I fail to see how any government would be needed for this. In fact, it all looks distinctly home-made.Besides, may well have got support from elements within the Pakistani or Saudi governments, as well as the Taliban. That's not news to anyone. Nor is the Bush family's ties to the Saudi royal family a secret. If you want to go somewhere with this though, you will need more than just "MAY". You need evidence of some kind of conspiracy, which you manifestly do not have.

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On one video? That's it...that's all they have. Nothing else.

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You know full well that that's not true. There is a long line of connections between the bombers and AQ.

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And you know this how...?

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You know this for a fact...?

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Don't be silly. It's just Occam's razor. Either Bush and his cronies lied to make themselves look better, just like they have done a thousand times, or... What you're suggesting... What were you actually saying happened again? First it was controlled demolitions, now it's some cover-up... I'm confused.

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Whoops, sorry...? I hope the families of the victims can accept that as easy as you have.

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Notably, the 9/11 denial movement is not centred around the families of the deceased.

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An investigation on the matter would clear the air.

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Oh yeah. that worked so well with the Kennedy assassination. The truth is that conspiracy theorists are never satisfied and will continue bleating about this forever. I don't understand you. you say you want an investigation. Yet you also say; and [qs=onifre]How deep does the rabbit hole go...? We'll never know.[/quote]So what's the point?

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My world is not NORAD - NORAD doesn't "fuck up" and says "whoops, sorry."

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That's right. NORAD didn't fuck up beyond not being able to find the planes on their radar, due to the beacons being switched off by the hijackers. The tapes of the radio chatter from NEADS show clearly the confused situation there. Cheney wasn't in control of the situation; no-one was. It all happened too fast. There is no conspiracy here, just SNAFU.

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I am not claiming some "mastermind consiparcy", in fact, that is the type of consiparcy crap that gets in the way of actually trying to figure out what happened.

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Not so long ago you were arguing for a controlled demolition of WTC 7, classic "conspiracy crap". [quote]...Bush, Cheney, the Bush family, etc, we don't know how far the rabbit hole goes.[/qs]Oh please. You don't even know that there is a "rabbit hole".

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A few within both governments, now you might be on to something.

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And who might they be? And what might this "something" be? And what is your evidence?

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Don't tell me I'm meerly giving consiracy theory opinions and then reply with a mainstream opinion, who gives a shit, they're BOTH opinions.

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If you don't want my opinion, why ask about George Bush's motivations for lying? If you want the truth, you'd have to ask George, because he's the only one who knows why he tells porkies. Of course, you won't be able trust a word he says...

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But why does one side NOT want an investigation to clear the air of ALL opinions? - Is it meerly for PR reasons?

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No. It's because the conspiracy wallahs haven't come up with anything credible enough to be worth investigating. It's pretty much the same reason that scientist can't be bothered to fund research into special creation.

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I have not said this at all. This is what you're saying I'm saying. You are trying to pigeon-hole my argument into standard, bullshit conspiracy theory crap.

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What I'm suggesting it implies is that they're covering up information

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What information. And why? And to what ends? All you can produce is a bunch more questions.Occam's razor applies here and it's a lot kinder to my explanation than yours.

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Fact is, you have no evidence to support your assertions that the only reason they are covering up is so they "look good" or "not as bad".

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Yes I do. The simple fact that lying to save face was standard policy within the Bush administration. That makes the idea that they were lying to save face pretty damn believable in my view.

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You are claimng the same leprechaun in the cupboard as I am.

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No I am not. I am claiming something utterly mundane; that politicians tell fibs to make themselves look better. That is not an extraordinary claim. You can't say the same for this nebulous conspiracy that you're arguing for.Mutate and Survive

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"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

Regarding flight 175, this claim; is just nonsense.175 was actually being hijacked at about that time. There is no way the FAA could have known about it. As far as the FAA was concerned, nothing unusual occurred with 175 until 08:47 when its transponder codes changed and that took a while to sink in, given that the controller was somewhat distracted by flight 11's destruction.NEADS were clueless about 175 until about the time it hit the tower.Mutate and Survive

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"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

Okay, firstly, apologies for the delay; I've been having connection problems (boo to Virgin Media ).

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It very well can be nonsense, but you'll have to explain why you accept the 911 Commissions timeline and reject NORAD's timeline.

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Because the commission's timeline makes sense. The one you seem to place so much trust in does not.Remember, United 175 made its last radio contact at 08:37. At that point, no hijack had taken place, although they do mention a suspicious broadcast. The flight did nothing out of the ordinary until its transponder changed frequency at 08:47. There is no way that anyone on the ground could possibly have known that anything untoward was going on. The original NORAD timeline is simply not possible.If you want to explain this away, you are going to have to drag the FAA into the cover-up as well as the staff at NEADS. That is an extraordinary claim and it requires more evidence than you have been able to present to make it at all believable.

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Curiously, have we ever been lied to before by the media?

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Oh please! We all agree that politicians have lied. You need to demonstrate that they were lying about this and that they were lying for the reasons you imply. Anything else is completely irrelevant.

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Or, is it that anyone who agrees with Bin Laden is automatically labeled a "fundie" by the news media...?

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Anyone who supports the murder of others in the name of their religion is a textbook fundamentalist. I have no problem labelling them in this way. The scum who support the recent murder of an abortion doctor are fundies and so are AQ's supporters. I see no useful distinction, other than their religion of choice.

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He had the support of many, many, many Muslims long before 911.

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And he was responsible for terrorist outrages before 9/11 as well.

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By this standard, Bush and the US government are Christian terrorist scumbags. I'm not saying OBL hasn't acted in a way that many in the West consider "terrorism", but IF we view his actions as terrorism, then we must view the actions of the US, UK and it's allies, as terrorism as well.

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Can you agree with that?

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Not quite. The US and its allies, including my own country, have, in my view, behaved apallingly. That does not, however make them terrorists per se. Terrorism has a different MO to the actions of the US/UK. Terrorists plant bombs in cars, aim to maximise civilian casualties, plant IEds by public roads, that sort of thing. Military action by highly organised and professional armed forces don't use these kinds of techniques.The word "terrorist" has a meaning beyond simply "someone who kills people with bombs". It implies a kind of home-grown methodology that doesn't accurately describe the military. Calling Bush a terrorist makes for good rhetoric, but I don't think it is an accurate way of describing him. It is much better to call Bush a reprehensible scumbag, without muddying the waters by using inaccurate terminology.

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You are just looking at the act itself. Look at the whole picture, from them getting visas to taking flight classes. Financing the attacks is a very important issue, who did finance it? The 911 Commission decided that "it was of little significance"...do you agree with that? Because I don't.

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Perhaps it was deemed "of little significant" because it pointed to too many people who didn't want to be signaled out?

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I do think that the funding of the attacks has been swept under the carpet somewhat. I suspect that this has most to do with OBLs friends in Saudi Arabia. The flow of oil is too precious for any government to rock the boat regarding the Saudis. This however, is a separate issue to that of any cover-up of mistakes at NEADS.

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Now, can you provide evidence for more of a connection, other than that video? - we were not discussing the "bombers".

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In a 2006 video OBL was actually pictured with the damn bombers. He has admitted responsibility in videos broadcast in both 2004 and 2006 (not just one video). What exactly would satisfy you here?

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I'm saying that their agreed upon lies - (which I noticed you are now calling "lies") - can have more to it than just "make themselves look better".

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Or not. And you haven't been able to provide any evidence to back up your claims beyond opinion.

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And what do you mean by the Kennedy reference? What are "conspiracy theorist" not satisfied with? Oswald as the lone shooter? Are you satisifed with that?

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Yes.

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The issue here is bigger than "politicians telling lies". We are also talking about misinformation from the government, bias opinions from the media, connections between Bush and the governments that funded the attacks, timeline differences in 2 independent reports - however one report comes directly from the Bush/Cheney interview with the 911 Commission - but I guess more needs to be done by me to provide evidence for these connections. So, I'll try.

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However since you wrote this, you are still stuck with nothing more than a disagreement between timelines and the fact that Bush & co. are lying assholes.One SNAFU and three lying politicians do not a conspiracy make.Mutate and Survive

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"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

Hi Michamus,

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I'm not sure, but I think this is my first response to you, so this should be interesting.

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I hope so. As I said to Oni, sorry for the delay. i have had connection problems.

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Viewed unanimously by whom? This statement is quite vague, unless you are actually trying to make the claim that nearly every human being on this planet views OBL this way.

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Okay, I think you have hold of the wrong end of the stick here. It's my fault. i didn't make myself clear enough.To be clear, I was replying to Onifre about how OBL is viewed in the West. Perhaps my statement should have read more like this; I hope that makes things clearer. I am well aware that many others view him differently, and indeed I made reference to that fact in the post you replied to.

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The vast majority of Muslims here in Afghanistan simply want us to leave them alone. They want us out of their country, and OBL and the Taliban facilitate that desire.

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I appreciate that this is how most Afghans see things. It does seem odd to me though, since if it were not for the Taliban and Al Qaeda, the US almost certainly wouldn't be in Afghanistan at all. The harder they fight back, the less the US is able to justify pulling out.I would be interested to hear your thoughts on this apparent paradox.

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As I was told by a Pashtun Commander; "The Afghan people are a proud people."

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No doubt. Every army that has ventured into Afghanistan has found this to be true.

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Firstly, to put it bluntly, your opinion is worthless in this matter as:
A) You don't really know anything about OBL.
B) You don't really know anything about how OBL is viewed by his subordinates.
C) You don't really know anything about how the local populations in the middle east and Southwest Asia view OBL.

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I quite agree. My opinion is utterly worthless and should be disregarded by all thinking people.This is a discussion board though, and it would be a trifle dull if we didn't express our opinions. Fortunately, the chances of anyone out there basing their view of the world on "what Granny Magda said" are minimal and long may that remain the case.

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OBL is known to view himself as a soldier that has not provided himself any more comfortable accommodations, or food than any of his soldiers.

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Yes. And say what you like about him, he gave up the life of a billionaire playboy to do it. You can't doubt his sincerity or commitment.

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Take care.

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I'll be fine. You take care and I hope that next week finds you safe and sound amongst your loved ones at home.Mutate and Survive. (I always write that, but in your case, I really mean the second bit )

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"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade