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Author Topic:   9-11 Conspiracy
subbie
Member (Idle past 1285 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 2 of 148 (469261)
06-04-2008 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by BanjoBlazer
06-04-2008 8:49 PM


What exactly is it that you are leaning toward?
I've seen many different claims made by various conspiracy theorists, everything from incompetence on the part of the government all the way to actually claiming that the government was behind it all and islamic terrorists had nothing to do with it.
What precisely is it that you think?

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by BanjoBlazer, posted 06-04-2008 8:49 PM BanjoBlazer has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by ramoss, posted 06-04-2008 9:33 PM subbie has replied
 Message 5 by BanjoBlazer, posted 06-04-2008 9:58 PM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1285 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 4 of 148 (469273)
06-04-2008 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by ramoss
06-04-2008 9:33 PM


Nor do I, but it's among the claims that various conspiracy theorists make when talking about 9/11. I'm not particularly interested in debunking every possible conspiracy claim, so I'm trying to find out exactly what it is that Banjo has in mind.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by ramoss, posted 06-04-2008 9:33 PM ramoss has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by BanjoBlazer, posted 06-04-2008 10:14 PM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1285 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 6 of 148 (469277)
06-04-2008 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by BanjoBlazer
06-04-2008 9:58 PM


What's your basis for thinking that "officials" showed up at a gas station across the street and confiscated security camera footage from the station?
What "officials" do you believe these were?
I'm not trying to be nitpicky, but I've had many conversations with conspiracy theorists in which they've been very vague about their claims and their support for their claims. In my experience, this vagueness usually inhibits rational discourse, so I'm trying to get a clearer handle on what you think and why.
As far as the plane debris question goes, there actually was debris photographed on the grass outside the Pentagon. Here's one picture.
The next question I usually get after posting this picture is why there isn't more debris.
An airplane crashed squarely into a thick concrete building. How much would you expect to see? What's the basis for expecting to see more than there is?

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by BanjoBlazer, posted 06-04-2008 9:58 PM BanjoBlazer has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by BanjoBlazer, posted 06-04-2008 10:17 PM subbie has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1285 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 8 of 148 (469279)
06-04-2008 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by BanjoBlazer
06-04-2008 10:14 PM


Why would you expect to see more?
What's the basis for that expectation?

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by BanjoBlazer, posted 06-04-2008 10:14 PM BanjoBlazer has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by BanjoBlazer, posted 06-04-2008 10:21 PM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1285 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 10 of 148 (469281)
06-04-2008 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by BanjoBlazer
06-04-2008 10:14 PM


Besides the looking at the pictures, did you read this:
Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. "It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why," says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. "I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box." Kilsheimer's eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: "I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?"
What possible explanation do you have for this if it wasn't a plane?

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by BanjoBlazer, posted 06-04-2008 10:14 PM BanjoBlazer has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by BanjoBlazer, posted 06-04-2008 10:31 PM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1285 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 15 of 148 (469286)
06-04-2008 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by BanjoBlazer
06-04-2008 10:21 PM


Find me another picture of an airplane wreck where the plane flew full speed into a concrete building that's been reinforced to the same degree that the Pentagon has.
This was a unique event. The fact that other crashes in completely different circumstances left more debris is irrelevant.
What's your expertise in airplane crash reconstruction? Unless you have some, your expectations about the amount of debris that should be there are worthless.
As far as the question about how the pilot could have done that, I'm afraid that answer died with the pilot. But let me ask you this question: if there really was a serious question about whether a plane crashed into the Pentagon, don't you think that the media would be all over that? It would be the biggest news story in the history of the world. How can you possibly explain every major news organization in the world ignoring it?
And, if it wasn't a plane, what happened to all the people who were supposed to have been on the plane? Where did they go? One of the passengers on the plane was Barbara Olson, wife of Solicitor General Ted Olson. Do you seriously think he wouldn't make a lot of noise if he thought his wife didn't die on that plane?
There's no doubt that there are many unusual facts about events that day that might cause people to speculate. However, it's important to remember that if you're going to fashion a conspiracy theory to explain the oddities, it better not raise more questions that are even more difficult to answer than the oddities you're trying to explain.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by BanjoBlazer, posted 06-04-2008 10:21 PM BanjoBlazer has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by BanjoBlazer, posted 06-04-2008 10:38 PM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1285 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 17 of 148 (469288)
06-04-2008 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by BanjoBlazer
06-04-2008 10:31 PM


How many millions of people do you think have seen that photo? Don't you think that if it was from a missile or bomb that someone would have recognized it as such and said something?

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by BanjoBlazer, posted 06-04-2008 10:31 PM BanjoBlazer has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by BanjoBlazer, posted 06-04-2008 10:44 PM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1285 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 20 of 148 (469291)
06-04-2008 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by BanjoBlazer
06-04-2008 10:38 PM


Well, given the unprecedented coverage those events generated, and the fact that nobody in the main stream media is even mentioning these various theories other than to ridicule them, I'm hard pressed to understand a position of neutrality.
If there was any rational reason whatsoever to suspect anything other than the generally accepted story, why wouldn't that fact have made headlines and spawned countless investigations?

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by BanjoBlazer, posted 06-04-2008 10:38 PM BanjoBlazer has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by BanjoBlazer, posted 06-04-2008 10:53 PM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1285 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 21 of 148 (469292)
06-04-2008 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by BanjoBlazer
06-04-2008 10:44 PM


In some ways it does. In some ways it doesn't.
Do you have any idea how much time it takes to prepare for a controlled demolition? Do you have any idea how many explosives have to be planted? If you don't, let me assure you that there's absolutely no way that that building could have been rigged for a controlled demolition without the people that were in the building before the plane crashes seeing something unusual.
And, if it were a controlled demolition, can you possibly imagine that the New York City firefighters who lost dozens of friends and coworkers would have covered up the real story behind those deaths?

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by BanjoBlazer, posted 06-04-2008 10:44 PM BanjoBlazer has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1285 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 23 of 148 (469294)
06-04-2008 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by BanjoBlazer
06-04-2008 10:53 PM


Most conspiracy theorists do a remarkable job of raising questions, and a really crappy job of answering them.
Does that website answer this question:
If there was any rational reason whatsoever to suspect anything other than the generally accepted story, why wouldn't that fact have made headlines and spawned countless investigations?
Do you have any answer to that question?
I've spent hours and hours looking at various screw loose sites. I'm not particularly inclined to kill any more brain cells wading through another one. If you want to pick out what you consider the most compelling arguments and present them here, I'll respond. But for the most part, this forum is for people to present their own arguments, not just link to arguments from other places. Otherwise, I'd simply tell you to read the site you linked the debris photo from, because that seemed to explain at lot of the nutty ideas some folks have.
In any event, if your only purpose here is to raise questions, but not answer any questions raised by your ideas, I think you'll find folks will rather quickly tire of you.
I'll check back here another time to see if you have anything further of substance to say, but since the ball game is over, I'm going to hit the hottub before bed.
Welcome to EvC. I hope you find your time here educational and enjoyable.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by BanjoBlazer, posted 06-04-2008 10:53 PM BanjoBlazer has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by lost-apathy, posted 05-27-2009 6:54 PM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1285 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 25 of 148 (510119)
05-27-2009 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by lost-apathy
05-27-2009 6:54 PM


Re: I have a answer
The answer is that that question is irrelevant. In mainstream american media, it gets absolutely no headlines, however if you broaden your media intake you would know that other countries in different languages and cultures have been giving this story quite a bit of attention.
Sorry, but you're going to have to explain why coverage by foreign media makes it irrelevant that American media isn't covering the story. Is there some limit on the amount of attention that any given story can get and the foreign press used it all up?
The fact that you don't see why the lack of American press coverage of conspiracy theories is an anomaly that must be explained suggests that you have nothing of value to add to this conversation. My point in this thread has been that the modus operendi of CTers is to throw dust in the air by tossing out dozens of questions without answering any. Your first post in this thread is doing nothing to disabuse me of my notion.
However, in the interest of being open minded, I'll continue.
Just recently Japan has been bringing up specific questions in their government. Canada has done documentaries. And so has sweden. There are countless examples, it just comes down to broadening your media intake to other sources besides fox, cnn, and nbc.
Wonderful. Link me the one that you find most compelling.
For purposes of this thread, it's best that it be in English. My foreign language skills are rusty to non-existent. Of course, since there are "countless" examples, I'm sure you can find one.
Physics says they fell at nearly freefall speed,...
I'm afraid that it's going to be hard for me to take your contributions here seriously when you display such a depth of ignorance. Physics says nothing about how fast the buildings fell. A simple clock tells us how fast they fell.
"[N]early freefall speed" is so vague as to be meaningless. Exactly how fast did they fall? (Hint: since more than one building fell, there are likely to be different speeds.) What would "freefall" speed be?
...even common logic can figure that a pancake theory is irrelevant.
Actually, "common logic" tells us nothing about how fast the buildings should have fallen. Knowledge of the materials the buildings were made of; the specifications of those materials, including load capacities; weight of the materials, and the building contents; the effect of high temperatures on the building material; these are things we need to know to understand if there is any anomaly in the way the buildings fell. Logic is useless without that information. In fact, in all cases, logic is useless without information to which to apply the rules of logic.
The evidence that points to a controlled demolition is staggering.
Well, let's see.
-explosives were heard in buildings even before the plane crashed.
No. Some witnesses reported hearing some explosions. Here's a hint, sometimes things explode without being an explosive.
-molten steel at bottom of the buildings
Please explain what you think the significance of "molten steel" is.
-rate at which they fell, seriously building 7 wasnt hit, and it fell in exactly the same way. buildings are made to be able to take a lot of resistance.
You have provided no evidence to support your conclusion. Do you have any, or is it nothing more than "I can't understand how it happened that way, so it must not have?"
-employees having lots of evacuation practice procedures, and even interviews of survivors saying they heard lots of weird noises the weeks before it occurred
Well, evacuation procedures in a big building. Color me unimpressed. Weird noises? Maybe it was poltergeists brought the towers down.
-a huge terrorist insurance taken out just 2 months before 911
Taken out by whom? What's your evidence?
-stock market predictions, where people put money on airlines failing at a much higher rate than usual. It shows someone knew prior to 911.
Evidence please?
The information that I have is that the put options that were made just before 9/11 were completely normal compared to the usual traffic in such investment devices.
Please, before you trot out a laundry list of more things you don't understand but plenty of other people do, answer a few of the questions I've asked. If you don't answer some questions, there's no point in continuing this dialogue. And where you make a factual claim, provide supporting evidence.
{AbE}
Now please explain to me scientifically, how it is possible for a 100 story building to fall that fast without using explosives to get rid of the resistance at the bottom and middle of the building.
Will do. Just as soon as you provide an evidential basis for concluding that there's some reason to suppose it shouldn't have fallen as fast as it did.
Also please tell me the evidence we have that linked Osama Bin Laden to 911.
Sorry, I don't understand how this question relates to CT madness.
I've read the 911 commission report and its overall scientific bullshit. Anyone who has even taken a basic college physics class can figure this out.
Then it should be easy for you to provide evidence to refute what it says. Evidence, not argument from ignorance.
They didn't even mention building 7 until recently.
Well, obviously they figured everyone would forget about building 7.
Edited by subbie, : Missed a bit at the end

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by lost-apathy, posted 05-27-2009 6:54 PM lost-apathy has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1285 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 27 of 148 (510121)
05-27-2009 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by lost-apathy
05-27-2009 9:28 PM


Apparently you missed the part where I asked for evidence. Try again.

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by lost-apathy, posted 05-27-2009 9:28 PM lost-apathy has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1285 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 29 of 148 (510129)
05-27-2009 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by lyx2no
05-27-2009 11:15 PM


OT aside
Wonderful signature, lyx2no. I must now add it to my collection. But my research shows there's a bit more to it.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by lyx2no, posted 05-27-2009 11:15 PM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by lyx2no, posted 05-27-2009 11:56 PM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1285 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 31 of 148 (510132)
05-28-2009 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by lyx2no
05-27-2009 11:56 PM


Re: Thanks for the lesson
It's a lesson I learned myself years ago, although it doesn't always stick with me. It's easy to accept as authentic something that we agree with, or that fits with our preconceived ideas. But such acceptance is no guarantee of truth. Thus, I've learned that we ought to research with equal thoroughness those ideas that strike us as accurate as those we doubt.
As you noted, fortunately the truncated quote you've been using is fully faithful to the original. I'm sure that President Jefferson wouldn't criticize the use of ridicule against any unintelligible proposition, even though on that occasion he suggested its application to one particular "Abracadabra."

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by lyx2no, posted 05-27-2009 11:56 PM lyx2no has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1285 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 36 of 148 (510187)
05-28-2009 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by lost-apathy
05-28-2009 2:36 AM


Re: 159m
But of course the people who respond on this thread probably have no degree in anything, and havnt even taken classes in physics.
Name calling; the last refuge of those with nothing of substance to say.
Pray tell, where did you get your physics degree, doctor?

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by lost-apathy, posted 05-28-2009 2:36 AM lost-apathy has not replied

  
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