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Member (Idle past 5936 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Meaning Of The Trinity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Danial Dennet is a curmudgeonly atheist philosopher...so I take his "wisdom" with a grain of salt. I'll look him up though...I've seen him spout atheistic nonsense with Harris, Dawkins, and Hitchens.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Taking information from this article: Daniel Dennett
He seems to have been one of the forerunners of humanism and the "New Atheism".Trying to get a snapshot of his basic worldview: quote: Dennett thus believes to a degree in chance as a causative agent---a belief which I find as silly as you find in a "spiritual war".
ringo writes: No more than your mind is closed to any sort of possibility of a spiritual realm....largely due to the fact that finding evidence for it is objectively impossible. You're making it pretty clear that your mind is closed like a bear trap. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Duly noted.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: This brings up a good point. For many people there seems to be no reason to believe in what they would conclude to be un-evidenced fantasies and tales of mythos. I have told you many times that I would gladly believe if there was any reason to believe. The only thing that stumps me there is the claim that they used to believe and now don't. This seems to only be possible if one values objective evidence and rationality over their belief. I would maintain that there is not a lot of objective evidence either way...and that it is far from conclusive.
You, on the other hand, have told me many times that you will never give up your beliefs. Lets just say that I do not take them tentatively or casually as if I were judging my thought process and belief paradigm with the scientific method. When I initially got saved, it was no small matter.
Base12 writes: Ahhhh a newcomer. Welcome to EvC. If I may, allow me to brief you. The Trinity or Godhead is what things are made of. That's what the verse says, and that what I believe. What are things made of that consist of three components? Atoms. Simple. Not sure why this is even a debate. You seem puzzled why this is a "debate". Might I ask you what else it could possibly be? The art of discussion and debate is an old and honorable one. May I ask you why you joined? Don't you want to be challenged? Also...it is my understanding that for the Trinity to be what things are made of rather than a vehicle through which they are made implies Pantheism over Trinitarian Monotheistic Creationism. Does that make sense?
Juvenissun, addressing ringo writes: I do. ringo likely believes that there is no "evidence" of any gods. He believes in human potential as the only thing that really matters and that we can test and measure. In order to believe in the nature of Trinity, you must first believe that there is a single God. Do you believe that? Let's make it easier, are you willing to accept the assumption that there is a God? This is serious. Once you accept the assumption, then you can not negate it in any of your later argument. Are you willing to accept the assumption that there is ONE God, and ONLY ONE God?"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
In order to argue about anything related to God, one first NEEDS to assume that there is a God. Otherwise, where is the base for any follow-up argument? Based on that premise, no atheist/agnostic or adherent of any other religion can argue in any way about God. Assuming that you and I knew that God is One and that He is Trinitarian Monotheistic, we would still be challenged to argue anything apart from what we intuitively believed. I happen to believe that Everyone on the planet knows *about* God. They know the version that a majority of we Christians believe is real. Why are they disqualified from asking questions? Sarah Bellum and I are just getting warmed up. But lets focus on you and I. Do you know what God would say were it He and I? Discuss."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Basically I am asking if you as a believer can speak on behalf of God. Critics despise apologists because they claim that apologists make up random stuff and in essence claim to speak on Gods behalf. Philosophically I see no reason why you can't. Scientifically is another issue, however. Science is science and is based on testable logic. Even if God could change the rules of logic, it does not appear that He does so.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Or a talking snake. But the apologists all agreed that the snake lied because the snake is equivalent to Satan who is the Father of lies. To assert that the snake tells the truth throws a whole plot twist into the definition of the character. None of us wrote the book, but I suppose we have the freedom to our own interpretations of the book. One problem, however, is if God Himself is a fictional entity there is no absolute truth nor is any Deity any holier than any other. Relativism is a plot of Satan. You cant have a heaven full of independent thinkers when it comes to who is in charge or who is truth personified. It is certainly possible to discuss the nature of a fictional entity, such as Frodo."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
What color is the sky in YOUR world?
Evidence and reality ALWAYS trump belief. Always, always, always. So what do you do if God is reality and yet is by nature UN evidenced to some?
I don't believe that there is any more evidence for YOUR god than there is for any other god You make it seem as if gods are a dime a dozen. I am talking about the Creator of all seen and unseen. The reality that is without objective evidence. Do you have a plausible substitute for such a position? I suppose we could personify the universe. Or glibly claim that "In The Beginning...chemicals" makes anywhere near as much sense. But lets not. Instead of challenging everything with a counterpoint, perhaps you could explain why the points I make are PRATTs.Point 1: There is One God, Creator of all seen and unseen. Apart from whining about no evidence, do you have any other reason to prefer chemicals as the beginning of everything we know? And where did they come from? "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
That's because you have no idea what philosophy is. And I am guessing that in your world even philosophy must bow to logic and evidence. My argument is that you can then assert that logic and evidence are only defined through human reason and thus human reason is the final standard.In you're world it seems to be just making shit up because you like the sound of it. ' We are so far doing a bang-up job of it, aren't we? "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Going around and around with ringo
As a sidenote to the peanut gallery, ringo and I have a long history here at EvC Forum debating and discussing religions, philosophy, political and sociological reality and what the Bible means. (For the record, he claims that it means what it says, but does not allow for the acceptance of the common Christian tradition of meaning which many if not most apologists push. In order for ringo to win the argument, he must convince all of us to take the book as written, throw any God (or Jesus) character away in our mind and that the message is the important feature of the book rather than the messenger, who I would argue was and is Jesus Christ. Moving on to the debate: Correcting my argument in line with Message 456 God if God exists is unevidenced to everyone by ringos logic. He cant seem to grasp the idea that only some people (whosoever has an ear to hear) will grasp the spirit behind the message. He seems to think that an unbeliever can understand the Bible as well as a believer, though in his case he charges all of the apologists of lying for an ulterior motive and planned agenda. One question is why on earth ringo was at one time a believer and changed his mind. I get hints as to why.
ringo writes: But don't you see? Leprechauns are in no way the same thing. They are at best myths made up by a minority culture within Ireland. They are cultural (and local) myths. Nobody claims that Leprechauns changed their life...apart from a superstitious pagan who swore by stories their grandmother taught them I'd do the same thing you would do if leprechauns were reality and yet hiding from us. One might ask if a changed life in and of itself counts as evidence, and I know that ringo claims that he sees no evidence of better behavior(works primarily) being done by Christians. Which is a valid point.
You're talking about a god made up by apologists. The god you talk about is consistently puny. I suspect you think He is too right wing. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
For one thing, it says two, not three - it may be support for a Binity. The third member is what makes believers unique from non believers. Everyone may have inner gumption and spirit, but not everyone is in communion with the Spirit of CVreativity, Love, and Justice that makes the kum ba yah flower power spirit of the sixties and of todays BLM movements puny by comparison. I think that ones political ideology colors their idea of the Holy Spirit as being too judgemental, too white, too authoritarian and whatnot."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: What you miss is the individual awareness that Jesus has for each of us. Why would different people have different standards for salvation? If one person MUST give up all of his possessions to be saved, how can anybody else do less? Let us take ringo as an example. If he ever married, to his wife he would be first a husband and intimate love. To his street and library buddies, he would be a friend who always made sure they had enough to eat. To his government, he would be just another one of many citizens....a number and a tax form. If he had a son or daughter, to them he would be Dad. A Father. And should he ever die, as Asgara, Buzsaw, RAZD, and Robin Rohan have done, to us at EvC he would be a comforting memory and an example through his words and actions. To Jesus, GOD was not Loki. Or Allah. Or a Flippin spaghetti monster. GOD was (and is )His Father. He even said that "I and my Father are one." No other person has ever claimed as intimate of a relationship with a Creator nor have many even understood the uniqueness of a Creator of all seen and unseen vs a local mythos or legend.As a teacher, He taught that intimacy with GOD, (Creator of all) was possible. He also mentioned to His Disciples that He must go (from this realm...this life) and that they would never be alone as they would have the Spirit of Truth, the Comforter with them always. He also sai at an earlier point that He would be with them always. For the life of me, I can't figure out why so many people are so dense and clueless regarding the idea that 1+1+1=1. Ringo the Father, Ringo the internet friend/critic/fellow poster, Ringo the husband (if he ever married), and/or ringgo the friend closer than a brother are all aspects of one person. One character. Not 3 or 4 or 7. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: That's because there is no "3rd" member. When Jesus tells you that He must leave yet will send the comforter, He is fulfilling the promise that He will never leave you(us) nor forsake you(us). The 3=1. I was responding to a supposed Bible reference to the Trinity by pointing out that that reference doesn't mention a "third member" at all."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Im trying. Of course, some of my views and beliefs evolve as I ponder them and question them. To be fair, I believe now that there is no 3. Jesus was and is God...in the flesh and now eternally. The Father is greater than a human could ever be, yet would be fully capable of manifesting through the character of a human.(a chosen unique human). I suppose one could argue that He could thus manifest through anyone or anything, and i wont bother arguing otherwise. All that I would claim is that Jesus as a human knew no sin. He was never separated from His Father except, perhaps for a necessary moment, on the cross. The subject is the meaning of the Trinity. Perhaps Trinity was the wrong description.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
PaulK writes: Noted. I should have acknowledged what you say(or what Ringo said). Scripture does describe different and evolving ideas about God(GOD) and we have some clues about the ways that the Jews of Jesus' time thought about GOD. It seems safe to say, based on scripture, that no one knew GOD the way that Jesus did. At least no one whom was recorded.
If you’ve changed your mind have the honesty to just say that instead of contradicting yourself.the topic doesn’t magically become wrong because you’ve now rejected the idea of the Trinity. I never said it should be changed. Lets go back.
sidelined(topic starter) writes: To which I responded (back then)
I have long wondered just what the notion of a trinity was supposed to explain if the common understanding requires that the three are one.I also would ask what the explanation is for the pregnancy experienced by Mary {wife of Joseph} if it is the case that the trinity are all the same since this would make Jesus the father of himself. Phat in 2007 writes: Thus I have not changed my belief all that much. Personally, I am unsure whether or not I am a Trinitarian or not. Lets see all that you have said over the years, while we are being critical. To be fair, I come across as a Modalist in my arguments. Message 399 But you challenged my example of the Cookie and free will of the Son in that post.
PaulK writes: The whole point is that though Jesus has the free will to disobey or rebel, He never did so. Whether the Father and Son are the same is debatable. GOD would have no need of free will nor any reason to disobey Himself. The big problem here is that you are not your hypothetical son. If you were to make it entirely about yourself it would be better. Intellectually you know that you shouldn’t eat the cookie. If there was another instance of you outside the room, he would say that you should not eat the cookie. But because you are there, in the room with that cookie you eat it anyway."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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