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Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Religion or Science - How do they compare? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
I said you shouldn't confuse literal with literate and you said I was wrong - suggesting that you think you should confuse them. Wrong as usual. You could at least try to simulate an intelligent reply.An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Phat writes:
So because the book says so, you would conclude that at least, in that case, God considered some audience somewhere as his equals???ringo writes:
Because those were Bronze Age goobers who had limited knowledge of reality. Todays goobers have a better grasp of reality in most cases. We have established that the book was written, edited, and redacted by humans. I maintain that today's humans are as capable of writing about God as any were back then.
Why would you reject what the Book says in favour of what some goober says?Phat writes:
You could start a whole new religion with that kind of thinking!Ringo writes: There is no sin at revising the teachings in light of new understanding. We do have a few major questions to guide us...namely:
A religion that actually pays attention to its Book?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Then why do today's goobers reject reality in deference to what the Bronze Age goobers wrote?
Because those were Bronze Age goobers who had limited knowledge of reality. Todays goobers have a better grasp of reality in most cases. Phat writes:
Our new understanding is that many of the events described in the Bible never happened - e.g. the resurrection.
There is no sin at revising the teachings in light of new understanding. Phat writes:
Exactly. Which is why our new understanding doesn't require Him. What good is a God if humans themselves can correct Him?An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Speak for yourself. I see no evidence that mainstream science has rejected the resurrection.
Our new understanding is that many of the events described in the Bible never happened - e.g. the resurrection. Which is why our new understanding doesn't require Him. Perhaps you don't. It's your loss. What would really be cool is if you decided to be a real contrarian and argue for His existence for a change!Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Paboss Member (Idle past 1795 days) Posts: 55 Joined:
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RAZD writes:
Hi Paboss and welcome to the fray.
Hi RAZD, Thanks for welcoming me to your topic and for the advice on editing. I’ll keep it in mind. Regards. Edited by Paboss, : No reason given.
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Paboss Member (Idle past 1795 days) Posts: 55 Joined: |
Phat writes:
Speak for yourself. I see no evidence that mainstream science has rejected the resurrection.
But there is evidence of that in which they do not recognize the resurrection as a fact. If what you mean is that Science doesn’t have evidence to disprove the resurrection they don’t need any. What they would need is evidence for the resurrection in order to accept it as something that really happened. But there is not even consensus in the question of whether Jesus existed at all or not.
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Paboss Member (Idle past 1795 days) Posts: 55 Joined: |
Faith writes:
Of course we should all read the Bible for ourselves. I was responding to the fact that Paboss apparently didn't know the Bible although he considered himself a strong Christian, so when he sat down to read it he discovered all these things about it that offended him. So I figure he wasn't getting much preaching on it either.
I know the Bible very well; well enough to understand it cannot be interpreted as literally true. And I did get a lot of preaching from pastors and priests of different denominations and none of that was convincing. But why don’t you recommend me a good preacher? Give me a link to a video that you think addresses one of the many problems I see in the Bible. Although Bible contradictions are bad enough, I’m even more concerned about the moral values of the Bible. So please send me a link of a sermon that addresses one of the following issues:
This is just a small sample. There is an overwhelming amount of moral problems with the Bible. If you don’t have sermons addressing one of the issues in the previous list, take one from the extensive list of Bible atrocities in this website: Bible Atrocities » Internet Infidels. Show me one good sermon addressing any of these atrocities and I’ll let you know what I think of it. Regards.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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I know you know the Bible well NOW, I was talking about before you read it. As I understood it, you already considered yourself a Christian before you read it. If not, please correct.
I know very well that once someone has made up his mind in the direction you have it's pointless to try to talk you out of it and yet I always end up trying anyway. I doubt I could find sermons specifically directed to the topics you list, though I'm sure they get discussed in passing in many. However, I'll sketch out my own answers.
Bible position in regards to slavery. Are you aware that it was Christians who led the movement against slavery? Wilberforce in England, the abolitionists in the US. They took their cue from the Bible. It is implicit that people not be the possessions of others when possible. Paul's letter to Philemon is the only direct statement that slaves should be set free, however. And yet he is very respectful of the slave owner and doesn't order him to give up his slave or insult him, just says it would be the Christian thing to do. Slavery was a universal institution, and still exists in many nonChristian nations. The Bible reports on slavery, it does not condone it, and God prescribed humane laws for its conduct. As I understand it God didn't outlaw it because it was so woven into the cultural fabric of the day and especially the economic side of life nobody would have obeyed it and would therefore have lived with a bad conscience. God is wise enough not to provoke people unnecessarily. A great deal of slavery was entered into as a way to pay off debts that people had no other way to pay.
Bible position in regards to gender equality. Women were put under the curse of the Fall by being subjected to the rule of husbands, even their tyranny. This attitude is shown in all the heathen cultures of the world, and only lifted in Christian nations and now those nations that imitate the Christian nations. The Bible shows a very liberal attitude toward women by comparison with the cultures of the world of the day, since some women have a recognized and admired role in events their social position would normally forbid. Nevertheless they remained under the thumb of men throughout biblical history, and also in New Testament times, though Jesus is famous for his inclusion of women, even to the point of offending His male disciples. His death liberates us from the curse of the Fall. Again the Bible is dealing with an ingrained social system that would resist and even ridicule and probably be violernt toward any attempt to liberate women. But as with slavery, it sowed the seeds for liberation when the times changed enough to support it. abe: The ironic thing in all this moral attack on God is that the attackers are using God's own work against Him. Without Christianity there would not have been any move to eradicate slavery or to improve the lot of women. Or for that matter to care for the sick or elderly or parentless children. People were just put out on the streets to die or fend for themselves, children included. Christians founded hospitals and orphanages, starting by personally caring for the sick and for abandoned children. Newborns put out to die were rescued by Chrstians. Effortts to help the poor were initiated by Christians. The Magna Carta was a Christian inspiration. And despite the fact that the American founders were not Christians they carried the Christian worldview into their designing of the American institutions. The paganism the west is now regressing to has no love of humanity as Christianity does. And I'll add here that His severe justice that is considered to be "genocide" and immoral is in reality a great mercy to humanity because the wickedness being judged can drag society into worse and worse wickedness making prey of the innocent, and worse judgements because of it. But it takes a basic love and trust of God to understand that He knows what He is doing and that it is for our good. /abe
Bible position in regards to homosexuality. Homosexual acts are sin, period, and gay marriage is a direct violation of God's ordinance of marriage. But the Bible certainly doesn't condone any mistreatment of homosexuals. They are sinners to be saved like everyone else.
Moral implications of killing almost the entire life in the planet by a worldwide flood. That event ought to teach us how evil sin is in God's eyes that it deserved such extreme punishment. But there's also reason to think it was far worse in those days than since the Flood. "The imagination of men's hearts was only evil all the time" and "the world was filled with violence." God's justice is often severe, but it is justice and not a moral failure. To my mind that accusation is disgusting and scary since it invites judgment against any nation that promotes such an idea, and individuals too of course.
Moral implications of overriding Pharaoh’s free will and harm the entire Egyptian population in order to rescue the Hebrews. Again this is a story we are to learn from, about God's moral judgments. Against the idolatries of the nation in this case -- the various plagues brought against Egypt represent their demon gods, the frogs, the flies, all of it, and against the enslavement of God's people. Rescuing the Hebrews was a declaration that they belong to the one true Creator God who has authority and power over all the world, and all the heathen religions and nations of the world, not just the Hebrews. And many Egyptians got the message and were among those who put the lamb's blood on their doorposts and escaped the angel of death, and accompanied the Israelites on their exodus.
Moral implications of the genocide of the different populations inhabiting the Promised Land by the Hebrews. Again this was judgment for their idolatrous religions, which included the sacrifice of babies to their demon gods and homosexual acts as "worship" of the gods. (There was also one incident where the Jews took vengeance on some tribe that had attacked them and dashed out their babies' brains, so the Jews did it back to them, on their own and not at God's command, but I forget where that is. One of the psalms describes the events.) You may have noticed phrasing along the lines of how the time has not yet been fulfilled for this or that, or now the time is fulfilled. That is about the immoralities either not yet having reached the level for judgment -- or having reached it. We in the west are now certainly under judgment ourselves; when the fullness of our offenses is reached it isn't going to be fun.
Moral implications of torturing for eternity the majority of people that has ever lived because they did not believe. We don't know how people who never heard the gospel will be treated by God. The Bible often speaks of heathen peoples who intuitively obey His law. Since we don't know I'd leave it to Him, but of course continue to send out missionaries to bring as many as possible to the gospel of salvation. I regard God as wise and merciful of course, which obviously you don't. Those explicitly slated for Hell are pretty clearly defined in the Bible and it includes some Pharisees and other religious leaders.
This is just a small sample. There is an overwhelming amount of moral problems with the Bible. If you don’t have sermons addressing one of the issues in the previous list, take one from the extensive list of Bible atrocities in this website: Page not found » Internet Infidels. Show me one good sermon addressing any of these atrocities and I’ll let you know what I think of it. Regards. I certainly wish you the best, which means I hope you will come to your senses and see how wrong you are about all this. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Science rejects the idea of resurrection, period. You knew that, didn't you?
I see no evidence that mainstream science has rejected the resurrection. Phat writes:
Your claim was that modern apologists know better than the Bronze Age Bible authors. This isn't about me; it's about your apologist sources. They have essentially apologized God out of the equation.
ringo writes:
Perhaps you don't. Which is why our new understanding doesn't require Him. Phat writes:
I could argue for an alien race that terra-formed our earth and influenced the development of everything in it. I don't think anything beyond that is remotely plausible. You can't present a coherent argument for the existence of God - you're always forced to fall back on belief - so what makes you think I could? What would really be cool is if you decided to be a real contrarian and argue for His existence for a change!An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Well, you do have a point. Faith is faced with the same dilemma over in the fossils thread. She tries to make the argument that there are facts that support creationism but is embroiled in an endless argument over what facts they are. You can't present a coherent argument for the existence of God - you're always forced to fall back on belief - so what makes you think I could? All that I will defend...a point that has been challenged many times---is that No God is not the default position. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Why not? Isn't no unicorns the default position? Isn't no fairies the default position? Isn't innocent until proven guilty the default position? All that I will defend...a point that has been challenged many times---is that No God is not the default position. No is always the position until there is some reason to think yes.An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: All that I will defend...a point that has been challenged many times---is that No God is not the default position. Do you really mean that? Or do you just mean that you will assert or maintain, or believe? Is there anyway that the position there is a God could actually be defended?
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: People have no reason to need such creatures (or imaginations).
Isn't no unicorns the default position? Isn't no fairies the default position?ringo writes: Arguably, many people do in fact think yes. While unicorns and fairies are not part of the popular imagination, God, Creator of all seen and unseen is. Moreover, many believe that such a character can be communicated with through the human character of Jesus Christ, which many also believe lives eternally. My point is that there is no majority that thinks or imagines No. Despite tangles fervant hopes to the contrary, Christianity is not dying a slow death anytime soon. No is always the position until there is some reason to think yes. In fact, evidence suggests that the reality of the next decade will provide even more reasons to have a reason or a need for a Creator. Humans can't seem to get out of their own way.
The U.S. debt is an unsolvable crisis Once people begin to face the pains of the future and see the reality of China crushing the US role as global superpower, I predict that at least in the US, Christianity will see a huge upsurge, and the public will again turn to the church to help them get what government will no longer be able to provide. Science will never die, thankfully---and we will need that also. With limited money, people will find that logic, reason, and reality won't satisfy their demands and that prayer will again be the preferred solution...as well as social communion.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: Once people begin to face the pains of the future and see the reality of China crushing the US role as global superpower, I predict that at least in the US, Christianity will see a huge upsurge, and the public will again turn to the church to help them get what government will no longer be able to provide. But what does the evidence show? England lost it's Empire and world dominating Navy and faced debt far greater as a percentage of production than the US debt. Did the people turn to the church to get what government no longer provided and did the church meet those needs? France and Germany and Belgium and Italy and Spain and Poland and Greece and Russia and ... lost everything, homes, factories, generations, governments. Did the people turn to the church to get what government no longer provided and did the church meet those needs?
[center]US News Best Quality of Life by Country 2018 Edited by jar, : add link to quality of life survey. Edited by Admin, : Live => Life
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Same with god.
People have no reason to need such creatures (or imaginations). Phat writes:
Many people are wrong.
Arguably, many people do in fact think yes. Phat writes:
On the contrary, most Gods "in the popular imagination" are not your God. Unicorns, fairies, dragons and such imaginary creatures are probably just as common "in the popular imagination" as your imaginary God - and more consistent.
While unicorns and fairies are not part of the popular imagination, God, Creator of all seen and unseen is. Phat writes:
I've asked you this many times and I really wish you would answer it before spouting the same nonsense over and over again: If you can communicate with your God, why is there no sign of the wisdom He's supposedly imparting to you?
Moreover, many believe that such a character can be communicated with... Phat writes:
It's not a referendum. We don't need a majority of opinions to decide whether the earth is flat or round. My point is that there is no majority that thinks or imagines No. The default answer is always No. It is in your own mind too, if you stop and think about it. If I claim that flerbend exists, you won't believe it unless I can show you some reason to believe. You're welcome to your beliefs. Just stop trying to pretend that they "make sense".
Phat writes:
I agree. Idiotic conspiracy theories aren't dying any time soon either. Anti-science sentiments aren't dying any time soon. They should, but they're not. Despite tangles fervant hopes to the contrary, Christianity is not dying a slow death anytime soon. Humans have a two tendencies that are often in conflict: they're curious but they're lazy. They want to know the origin of species but they don't want to put the time in to understand it, so they jump at the chance to "know" that Goddidit.
Phat writes:
Feel free to show us that evidence.
In fact, evidence suggests that the reality of the next decade will provide even more reasons to have a reason or a need for a Creator. Phat writes:
That may be true but that has nothing to do with a "need" for God. I's about fear of reality. It was fear of reality that got us into this situation and some people think that more fear will get us out. Once people begin to face the pains of the future and see the reality of China crushing the US role as global superpower, I predict that at least in the US, Christianity will see a huge upsurge, and the public will again turn to the church to help them get what government will no longer be able to provide. But of course, religion has failed consistently throughout history to solve our problems, hasn't it?
Phat writes:
Then it's their demands that are wrong. With limited money, people will find that logic, reason, and reality won't satisfy their demands...An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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