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Author Topic:   Religion or Science - How do they compare?
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1520 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 76 of 882 (832382)
05-03-2018 6:33 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Paboss
05-02-2018 7:18 AM


Re: Compatibility of science and religion
Hi Paboss and welcome to the fray.
It makes sense of everything and of anything because it can magically explain anything we cannot make sense of:
Why do we see contradictions in the Bible? We have fallen minds.
You can format to make lists easily -- see dBcodes/lists
This formats the list with an indent:
  • Why do we see contradictions in the Bible? We have fallen minds
  • Why do our moral values differ from those of God? We are fallen beings
  • etc
also check out (help) links on any formatting questions when in the reply window.
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Enjoy

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Paboss, posted 05-02-2018 7:18 AM Paboss has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1559 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 77 of 882 (832394)
05-03-2018 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by NoNukes
05-03-2018 1:00 AM


Re: On "Original Sin" and "The Fall"
Where does Coyote make any claim that anyone is perfect? Men have flaws as do all living things. You've missed the entire point.
This completely misses the point. Personal flaws are not the point, I'm talking about a basically flawed human nature shared by all of us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by NoNukes, posted 05-03-2018 1:00 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by NoNukes, posted 05-03-2018 9:43 AM Faith has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 882 (832395)
05-03-2018 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Faith
05-03-2018 9:37 AM


Re: On "Original Sin" and "The Fall"
I'm talking about a basically flawed human nature shared by all of us.
So am I. Again, nobody has said anything about humans being perfect. You made that up.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 05-03-2018 9:37 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1559 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 79 of 882 (832396)
05-03-2018 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by NoNukes
05-03-2018 9:43 AM


Re: On "Original Sin" and "The Fall"
Oh wow, more semantic nitpicking. Fine, confuse the whole issue as usual.

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 80 of 882 (832397)
05-03-2018 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Faith
05-03-2018 1:23 AM


Re: On "Original Sin" and "The Fall"
Just not those flaws attributed to the Fall, OK, with no hope of correction of those particular flaws as I was describing.
For you, the Fall is a catchall for just about everything. You don't even bother to consult the Bible anymore when you invoke it. Any deviation from perfection as you see it is "Fall".
What we can see in Genesis is that humans were never perfect. The idea that they had perfect minds before the Fall and could easily discern between right and wrong is non Biblical. Accordingly, any lack of ability humans have to do that now cannot be traced to the fall without ignoring the text.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

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 Message 73 by Faith, posted 05-03-2018 1:23 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 527 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 81 of 882 (832406)
05-03-2018 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Faith
05-03-2018 12:57 AM


Re: On "Original Sin" and "The Fall"
Faith writes:
In any case what we originally were meant to be shines through this doctrine....
But there were no lost abilities. Adam and Eve gained abilities (the knowledge of good and evil) and became more like God.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

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Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Phat, posted 05-03-2018 12:03 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 82 of 882 (832415)
05-03-2018 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by ringo
05-03-2018 11:50 AM


Re: On "Original Sin" and "The Fall"
Apart from becoming more aware of the differences, how did they in any way become more like God? And do we even have a clue as to how God was? All we have are human stories.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by ringo, posted 05-03-2018 11:50 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 84 by ringo, posted 05-03-2018 12:17 PM Phat has replied
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17855
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 83 of 882 (832418)
05-03-2018 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Phat
05-03-2018 12:03 PM


Re: On "Original Sin" and "The Fall"
According to the story they became like God in knowing good and evil (Genesis 3:22), just as the serpent said (Genesis 3:5).
It’s not hard to find. There are plenty of online Bibles if you don’t have one handy.

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 527 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 84 of 882 (832424)
05-03-2018 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Phat
05-03-2018 12:03 PM


Re: On "Original Sin" and "The Fall"
Phat writes:
Apart from becoming more aware of the differences, how did they in any way become more like God?
God said it:
quote:
Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil....
Why do you need more than that?
Phat writes:
And do we even have a clue as to how God was? All we have are human stories.
All you will ever have is human stories and human ideas about God. What's your point?

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Phat, posted 05-03-2018 12:03 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Phat, posted 05-04-2018 4:42 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 85 of 882 (832454)
05-04-2018 4:42 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by ringo
05-03-2018 12:17 PM


Re: On "Original Sin" and "The Fall"
so who is "us"?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by ringo, posted 05-03-2018 12:17 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by jar, posted 05-04-2018 6:28 AM Phat has replied
 Message 95 by ringo, posted 05-04-2018 11:44 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 86 of 882 (832457)
05-04-2018 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Phat
05-04-2018 4:42 AM


Re: On "Original Sin" and "The Fall"
Phat writes:
so who is "us"?
Come on Phat, we have been down that path a Brazillion times.
The early Bible stories show evidence of Polytheism; there are lots of Gods; lots of Gods as real as the Hebrew God. The difference is only territory and subjects. Each God holds sway over the peoples of a given area.
"us" are the other Gods.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Phat, posted 05-04-2018 4:42 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Faith, posted 05-04-2018 7:47 AM jar has replied
 Message 472 by Phat, posted 05-26-2018 11:45 AM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1559 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 87 of 882 (832458)
05-04-2018 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by jar
05-04-2018 6:28 AM


Re: On "Original Sin" and "The Fall"
The early Bible stories show evidence of Polytheism; there are lots of Gods; lots of Gods as real as the Hebrew God. The difference is only territory and subjects. Each God holds sway over the peoples of a given area.
This is true of all the lesser gods and the Bible is full of references to them. They are fallen angels or demons and the Israelites are always falling into the sin of worshiping them and being punished for it. The Bible exists partly to distinguish the one true living Creator God from all those lesser gods, and teach humanity what true worship of the true God is all about, to rescue us from the demon gods who have oppressed humanity since the Fall when their leader Satan deceived our first parents. Jesus' death on the cross was the pivotal event that made the rescue a reality.
The Bible could be said to be in essence the record of God's great rescue operation, to rescue the human race from all the effects of the Fall, including the deterioration of our created powers and slavery to the demons. which also of course requires forgiving and doing away with our sins, which are the reason we go to Hell. There are many passages where the idolatrous nations or individuals of those nations, such as Rahab, and Ruth the Moabitess, discover that the God of Israel is in fact the Creator God and not just one of the lesser gods of the kind they worship, along with all the passages where Israel falls into heathen idolatry..
"us" are the other Gods.
There isn't one unambiguously clear interpretation of this phrase that I've been able to find, there are lots of different opinions about it, but I'd say it is highly unlikely that the one true Creator God who made all the lesser gods, and whose Word so frequently condemns their worship, would identify Himself with them in such a way. That being the case it is most likely that the "us" is the Trinitarian God, one God in three Persons.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by jar, posted 05-04-2018 6:28 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by jar, posted 05-04-2018 8:08 AM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 88 of 882 (832459)
05-04-2018 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Faith
05-04-2018 7:47 AM


Re: On "Original Sin" and "The Fall"
Faith writes:
This is true of all the lesser gods and the Bible is full of references to them. They are fallen angels or demons and the Israelites are always falling into the sin of worshiping them and being punished for it. The Bible exists partly to distinguish the one true living Creator God from all those lesser gods, and teach humanity what true worship of the true God is all about, to rescue us from the demon gods who have oppressed humanity since the Fall when their leader Satan deceived our first parents. Jesus' death on the cross was the pivotal event that made the rescue a reality.
Except of course Faith, that is NOT what the Bible says. Have you ever actually read the Bible?
There is no Fall in the Bible.
Satan is God's agent in the Bible, only doing what God directs Satan to do.
What you market is not what the Bible says but only the dogma of your Cult.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Faith, posted 05-04-2018 7:47 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Faith, posted 05-04-2018 8:20 AM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1559 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 89 of 882 (832460)
05-04-2018 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by jar
05-04-2018 8:08 AM


Re: On "Original Sin" and "The Fall"
There is no "Trinity" in the Bible either, but hundreds of references to God that clearly define One God in Three Persons.
So the Fall is likewise implicit in many passages, and without it there would be no reason for Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.
At the Fall we lost the function of our spirit and became flesh; we also became subjects of the demon "gods" --
Gen6:3 writes:
And the LORD said, My Spirit shall not strive[fn] with man forever, for he is indeed flesh;
1Cor10:20 writes:
But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by jar, posted 05-04-2018 8:08 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by jar, posted 05-04-2018 8:23 AM Faith has replied
 Message 222 by Aussie, posted 05-16-2018 10:24 AM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 90 of 882 (832461)
05-04-2018 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Faith
05-04-2018 8:20 AM


Re: On "Original Sin" and "The Fall"
And the Trinity is NOT Biblical and no, there are not hundreds of of references to God that clearly define one God in Three Persons. That is all stuff created long after the Bible was codified.
And taking quotes out of context is exactly the utterly dishonest stuff apologists thrive on to dazzle the ignorant masses.
Genesis 6 is not describing any Fall.
Nor is the quotemine from Corinthians.
Remember Faith, many of us have actually read the Bible itself.
AbE: On the Sacrifice; the marketing of Jesus dying on the cross as a sacrifice is also one of the perversions common throughout much of Christianity; a perversion that totally diminishes Jesus, his message and even the Christian God.
Edited by jar, : see AbE:

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Faith, posted 05-04-2018 8:20 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Faith, posted 05-04-2018 8:25 AM jar has replied

  
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