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Author Topic:   Religion or Science - How do they compare?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 882 (832097)
04-29-2018 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Faith
04-29-2018 4:45 AM


Re: Compatibility of science and religion
Sometimes a sermon has a transcript attached to it, and there are also books on the subject.
Perhaps Paul can pick a controversy, and you can pick your favorite sermon or source that explains why the controversy does not involve a contradiction. That would advance the discussion beyond the yes it does/no it does not stage.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 04-29-2018 4:45 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by PaulK, posted 04-30-2018 3:40 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 68 of 882 (832346)
05-02-2018 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Coyote
05-02-2018 3:51 PM


Re: On "Original Sin" and "The Fall"
The name of this monstrous absurdity is Original Sin.
Couple Original Sin with Calvinism, and you've really got something monstrous. Not only are you born evil, but if you let Calvinists tell it, you are not even responsible for your own remorse and repentance and requests for salvation through grace.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Coyote, posted 05-02-2018 3:51 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 882 (832377)
05-03-2018 1:00 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Faith
05-03-2018 12:57 AM


Re: On "Original Sin" and "The Fall"
So you think we are perfection itself?
Where does Coyote make any claim that anyone is perfect? Men have flaws as do all living things. You've missed the entire point.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Faith, posted 05-03-2018 12:57 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Faith, posted 05-03-2018 1:23 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 05-03-2018 9:37 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 882 (832395)
05-03-2018 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Faith
05-03-2018 9:37 AM


Re: On "Original Sin" and "The Fall"
I'm talking about a basically flawed human nature shared by all of us.
So am I. Again, nobody has said anything about humans being perfect. You made that up.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 05-03-2018 9:37 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 05-03-2018 9:45 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 80 of 882 (832397)
05-03-2018 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Faith
05-03-2018 1:23 AM


Re: On "Original Sin" and "The Fall"
Just not those flaws attributed to the Fall, OK, with no hope of correction of those particular flaws as I was describing.
For you, the Fall is a catchall for just about everything. You don't even bother to consult the Bible anymore when you invoke it. Any deviation from perfection as you see it is "Fall".
What we can see in Genesis is that humans were never perfect. The idea that they had perfect minds before the Fall and could easily discern between right and wrong is non Biblical. Accordingly, any lack of ability humans have to do that now cannot be traced to the fall without ignoring the text.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Faith, posted 05-03-2018 1:23 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 882 (832467)
05-04-2018 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Phat
05-03-2018 12:03 PM


Re: On "Original Sin" and "The Fall"
Apart from becoming more aware of the differences, how did they in any way become more like God? And do we even have a clue as to how God was? All we have are human stories.
Genesis has God give an explicit and direct answer to that question.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Phat, posted 05-03-2018 12:03 PM Phat has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 882 (832844)
05-12-2018 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Faith
05-12-2018 1:37 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
useless response removed.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Faith, posted 05-12-2018 1:37 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 148 of 882 (832848)
05-12-2018 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by PaulK
05-12-2018 5:44 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
The idea that this refers to the Bible as a whole - as the author would have you believe - is simply not present in the text. There is nothing there to say which work is meant to be the word of our God.
At the time the quoted verses were written, the Bible as a whole, did not exist. The use of these verses to justify inerrancy fails in many ways.
Further, "thus says the Lord", is almost invariably used to quote words attributed directly to God within a particular passage.
If there were better arguments, I have to assume that somebody would be using them.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by PaulK, posted 05-12-2018 5:44 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by PaulK, posted 05-12-2018 5:59 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 200 of 882 (832916)
05-14-2018 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by Faith
05-13-2018 10:26 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
What is actually written is what I follow. You on the other hand don't.
You just told us differently. You said that you follow a "traditional Christian interpretation". Or something like that.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 10:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Faith, posted 05-14-2018 10:26 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 202 of 882 (832927)
05-14-2018 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by Faith
05-14-2018 10:26 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
What is actually written, read correctly the way it is supposed to be read, is what the traditional interpretation reads.
If that were the case, you would be able to defend your position based on the text alone. But you cannot do that. You always fall back on, "well, some old dudes said it means X."
You are absolutely the least logical person here.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Faith, posted 05-14-2018 10:26 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Faith, posted 05-14-2018 1:13 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 215 of 882 (832947)
05-14-2018 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Faith
05-14-2018 1:13 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Funny, I've said that to you many times, how you are the least logical person here. Is tit for tatting me that satisfying to you?
It does not matter what you say or claim without argument or evidence. You just demonstrated your inability to construct a case other than "X authority said so". Do you actually have an argument or are you going to add this thread to the examples of goofy creationists without a case?
You simply don't have the ability to insult anyone.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Faith, posted 05-14-2018 1:13 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 216 of 882 (832956)
05-15-2018 4:41 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Faith
05-14-2018 4:51 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
However, if you have to have a symbolic "cloud," the usual meaning of cloud is that it represents a very large company of people, as in "a cloud of witnesses" etc.
Really? Can you cite a couple of what must be many examples of this word usage?
Or are you just saying whatever?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Faith, posted 05-14-2018 4:51 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Faith, posted 05-15-2018 11:38 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 219 of 882 (832996)
05-15-2018 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Faith
05-15-2018 11:38 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Read somewhere while looking this up yesterday that both Greek and Latin as well as Hebrew, use "cloud" in this way, but can't find it today so you can accuse me of making that part up.
1. No hurry, take your time.
2. Your examples are not even on point. Not sure why you posted them.
3. Your claim was about the "usual meeting". And then what you actually cited included counter-examples where "cloud" was used in a completely different way?
Perhaps my point 1 is wrong. There is no point in citing the reference. You just proved that if, in fact, it says what you claim, that the reference is wrong.
Covering things like a cloud alludes to something like a blanket, which in turn could imply a multitude if it were people doing the covering. But of course, in those other words, like crowd, numbers, or multitude were also used.
So is it cloud, or the other words in the context that actually do the work?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Faith, posted 05-15-2018 11:38 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 229 of 882 (833043)
05-16-2018 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Faith
05-12-2018 12:38 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
duplicate
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Faith, posted 05-12-2018 12:38 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 230 of 882 (833044)
05-16-2018 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Faith
05-12-2018 12:38 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
I already explained that slavery was too enmeshed in the culture's economy to forbid it.
Wow. What a mighty God you serve.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Faith, posted 05-12-2018 12:38 AM Faith has not replied

  
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