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Author Topic:   Religion or Science - How do they compare?
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 220 of 882 (833017)
05-16-2018 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Faith
04-30-2018 9:44 AM


Re: Compatibility of science and religion
I'm not interested enough in the Judas story to try to figure out the details.
Hi Faith,
I suspect you are being dishonest here; dishonest with yourself as much as with the rest of us here following the conversation. Rather than a general lack of interest in this piece of "God-breathed" Scripture, I think it is much more likely that you have absolutely no idea how to reconcile this bald-faced contradiction in any meaningful way.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Faith, posted 04-30-2018 9:44 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 9:59 AM Aussie has not replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 222 of 882 (833028)
05-16-2018 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Faith
05-04-2018 8:20 AM


Re: On "Original Sin" and "The Fall"
There is no "Trinity" in the Bible either, but hundreds of references to God that clearly define One God in Three Persons.
This is also untrue Faith. The are not hundreds of references of references to the Trinity, and most of the few that are used in an attempt to justify it, are far from clear.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Faith, posted 05-04-2018 8:20 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 10:32 AM Aussie has replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 224 of 882 (833035)
05-16-2018 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Phat
05-05-2018 12:49 PM


Re: Revising The Book
ringo writes:
Why would you reject what the Book says in favour of what some goober says?
Phat writes:
Because those were Bronze Age goobers who had limited knowledge of reality. Todays goobers have a better grasp of reality in most cases.
Hi Phat, am I not understanding something about you in regard to how you read Scripture. Silly and dismissive language aside, were these people merely "Bronze age Goobers," or were they men being used as the hand of God, writing His perfect Word, under His inspiration? This is not a small point to clarify; the entirety of conservative Christendom hinges on this Doctrinal Center of Gravity.
I Timothy describes Scripture as being given by Inspiration of God. The Greek word literally translates to "God-Breathed." Either those words are the breath of God given for our instruction, or they are actually the superstitious scribblings of long-dead "Bronze age Goobers."
If you hold to the former proposition, why such a seeming disrespect for the authors? And if they wrote under God's hand, God's knowledge of reality is not limited, and His words should still confound and amaze us even today. So we should not have a better grasp of reality today. Would you mind clarifying for me please?
Phat writes:
So because the book says so, you would conclude that at least, in that case, God considered some audience somewhere as his equals???
Ummm... Isn't that the point of the whole thing in terms of Conservative Christianity?
Because the Bible says so, we conclude that...?

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 05-05-2018 12:49 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by Phat, posted 05-16-2018 11:24 AM Aussie has not replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 226 of 882 (833038)
05-16-2018 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Faith
05-12-2018 12:38 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
I already explained that slavery was too enmeshed in the culture's economy to forbid it.
This point really made me laugh out loud. You and other apologists are literally arguing a "Too Evil to Fail" policy. God is against evil, but if it gets too widespread, He'll go ahead and let it slide for a few thousand years. You are promoting a God only capable of focusing on the more "Detail-type," non-pervasive sins.
You don't suppose that Idolatry was at least as pervasive as slavery? God hit that particular point hard, why not slavery?
Idolatry was a great evil involving human sacrifice to demons and sexual acts of "worship."
Here we go again. So God punishes people who sacrifice their children to other gods, by ordering the death of more children to please Himself. Well done, Yahweh. Well done.
Again you find yourself publicly justifying killing kids, Faith.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Faith, posted 05-12-2018 12:38 AM Faith has not replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


(1)
Message 231 of 882 (833046)
05-16-2018 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Faith
05-12-2018 10:51 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
If it bothers you that we stay home while the state does the deed out of our sight, we could always bring back public stoning. I think the main idea of that was that the whole community be involved in the act of justice. The "unclean" thing would be refusing to put to death someone who really deserves it.
The monsters dance quietly inside the church...They would persecute us all to the ends of the Earth.
This is exactly why civil society took power away from the Christians.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Faith, posted 05-12-2018 10:51 PM Faith has not replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 233 of 882 (833049)
05-16-2018 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Faith
05-13-2018 4:57 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
I won't even defend myself. I knew the humorless lefties here would have to have some kind of fit of accusatory indignation. It's all they know how to do. Hey, put it in your signature so the whole leftie crew can get their daily rush of twisted moral indignation.
This also is dishonest. You CAN'T defend yourself. We aren't humorless, there is just nothing funny about killing an entire population wholesale because they are a different religion... "Damn those evil pregnant mothers, and don't get me going on their wicked, merciless embryos. Those pre-born babies probably can't wait to be sacrificed to some idol somewhere."
And reading your blood-stained words is not a rush of anything except jaw-dropping sadness and disbelief!
The moral indignation is a mere side effect.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 4:57 AM Faith has not replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 234 of 882 (833053)
05-16-2018 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Faith
05-16-2018 10:32 AM


Re: On "Original Sin" and "The Fall"
It should only take a few in any case, but I can show you hundreds nevertheless. Once it is clear there is only one God, and yet the Father is shown to be a separate Person as well as God, and the Son is shown to be a separate Person as well as God, and the Holy Spirit is shown to be a separate Person as well as God, that's the Trinity.
Faith, for goodness sake. We all know this isn't true! You cannot show hundreds of clear verses demonstrating the Trinity! It's not true! We all know you are being dishonest! Please stop. There are a few scattered verses in the NT mentioning a few variations on God, but just a few, and we all know you are not being honest here.
God never told Moses, "The LORD thy God is Three-in-One Lords," and I'm finding it hilariously ironic in this thread that Moses himself would have stoned you in public for believing in a Trinity.
Edited by Aussie, : Syntax

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 10:32 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 1:57 PM Aussie has replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 248 of 882 (833085)
05-16-2018 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by Faith
05-16-2018 1:57 PM


Re: Biblical proofs of the Trinity
The following article claims to refer to about 700 biblical texts as in some way supporting the doctrine of the Trinity. I've presented it here before at least once. You may not find many of the texts convincing, but as he says, you do have to read the Bible correctly to understand such things.
Well first off, no, I find hardly any of these convincing, as hardly any of his references have anything to do with the Trinity. Just copying and pasting the first few of his Scriptural points here:
There Is One God
One God: Explicit Statements
OT: Deut. 4:35; 4:39; 32:39; 2 Sam. 22:32; Isa. 37:20: 43:10; 44:6-8; 45:5; 45:14; 45:21-22; 46:9
NT: John 5:44; Rom. 3:30; 16:27; 1 Cor. 8:4-6; Gal. 3:20; Eph. 4:6; 1 Tim. 1:17; 1 Tim. 2:5; James 2:19; Jude 25
None like God (in his essence)
Explicit statements: Ex. 8:10; 9:14; 15:11; 2 Sam. 7:22; 1 Kgs. 8:23; 1 Chr. 17:20; Psa. 86:8; Isa. 40:18, 40:25: 44:7; 46:5, 46:9; Jer. 10:6-7; Micah 7:18
Being like God a Satanic lie: Gen. 3:5; Isa. 14:14; John 8:44
Fallen man become "like God" only in that he took upon himself to know good and evil, not that he acquired godhood: Gen. 3:22
Only one true God: 2 Chr. 15:3; Jer. 10:10; John 17:3; 1 Thess. 1:9; 1 John 5:20-21
All other "gods" are therefore false gods (idols), not gods at all: Deut. 32:21; 1 Sam. 12:21; Psa. 96:5; Isa. 37:19; 41:23-24, 41:29; Jer. 2:11; 5:7; 16:20; 1 Cor. 8:4; 10:19-20
Demons, not gods, are the power behind false worship: Deut. 32:17; Psa. 106:37; 1 Cor. 10:20; Gal. 4:8
How human beings are meant to be "like God"
The image of God indicates that man is to represent God and share his moral character, not that man can be metaphysically like God: Gen. 1:26-27; 5:1; 1 Cor. 11:7; Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10
The goal of being like Christ has the following aspects only:
Sharing His moral character: 1 John 3:2; Rom. 8:29
Being raised with glorified, immortal bodies like His: Phil. 3:21; 1 Cor. 15:49
Becoming partakers of the divine nature refers again to moral nature ("having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust"), not metaphysical nature: 2 Pet. 1:4; see also Heb. 12:10; on the meaning of "partakers," See 1 Cor. 10:18, 10:20; 2 Cor. 1:17; 1 Pet. 5:1
Are mighty or exalted men gods?
Scripture never says explicitly that men are gods
Powerful, mighty men are explicitly said not to be gods: Ezek. 28:2, 28:9; Isa. 31:3; 2 Thess. 2:4
Men and God are opposite, exclusive categories: Num. 23:19; Isa. 31:3; Ezek. 28:2; Hosea 11:9; Matt. 19:26; John 10:33; Acts 12:22; 1 Cor. 14:2
Moses was "as God," not really a god: Ex. 4:16; 7:1
Ezek. 32:21 speaks of warriors or soldiers as "mighty gods," but in context they are so regarded by their pagan nations, not by God or Israel; cf. Ezek. 28:2, 28:9
I apologize to everyone for the above annoying copy and paste but you can see this author is hardly even trying to stick to the doctrine of the Trinity in his arguments. He is all over the map here. The vast majority of his verse quotes have either nothing to do with the Trinity, or only tangentially sideswipe the issue on a distant flyby. I call bullshit on your "Hundreds of verses supporting the Trinity, Faith. Mostly because it's actually bullshit.
I was reasonably amused when your referenced author, Robert Bowman in this work titled "The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of the Trinity" makes this point:
The use of singular and plural pronouns for God
Over 7000 times God speaks or is spoken of with singular pronouns (I, He, etc.)
Immediately followed by:
At least three times God speaks of or to himself using plural pronouns
7000 times to 3 times, Faith.
Edited by Aussie, : spelling...

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 1:57 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by jar, posted 05-16-2018 4:53 PM Aussie has not replied
 Message 250 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 5:04 PM Aussie has replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 251 of 882 (833133)
05-17-2018 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 250 by Faith
05-16-2018 5:04 PM


Re: Biblical proofs of the Trinity
I never learn that no matter how good my evidence is it will never be good enough for EvC.
You seem to never tire in your attempt to maintain the first three words of your quote above true, despite all odds. The truth that seems always just beyond your grasp is the reality that your "Evidence" is just childish silliness Faith. Like your "700 quotes proving the Trinity in Scripture," it is trivially easy to demonstrate that your claim is nonsense. You have to somehow be aware that when you talk like this, other grown-ups are unable to take you seriously. In a desperate attempt to hide your lack of evidence, you try to throw others off your trail by making wild and baseless assertions in wide-eyed blustering arrogance, like an octopus trying to escape in a cloud of black ink.
Which I offer because MAYBE it might show some here that it isn't necessary to fight everything I say tooth and nail.
I mean, how many times do you need to be reminded that this is a debate forum? I've heard people tell you this for years... why can't you remember this? The entire purpose of this forum is for ideas to be presented and analyzed. Your blog is for preaching, but when you submit a post here, we don't just read it, we get to chat back and tell you why we disagree.
But I would like to end my role in this discussion with a very rare thank-you from one of my most steadfast opponents here, Dr Adequate, who years ago actually appreciated the reference to the Trinity presentation I've posted here.
And here you go again. You are running away. I want you to understand that you are running away from this conversation because you have absolutely nothing of any real worth to counter any of the points being made. Let this sink in Faith; I want to say it again for you. You have nothing of any value that can answer the points that have been raised in this thread, so you are choosing to run away while we watch. We know you well enough that if you had any real answer... absolutely ANYTHING at all, you would present it. Instead of responding to our points, you changed the subject to a random time when Dr. Adequate said someone (not even you) presented something reasonably well? Like your "700 versus" author, you aren't even trying to stay on topic.
Instead you are running away.
We have all seen you do this a hundred times. You are faking arrogant confidence, totally faking it, and trying to slip away to your hiding place in clouds of black ink. We can see you doing this, and we know what you are doing. It's a debate site, and it is more interesting with you here, but you can't bring the brutality of a Bronze age value system to a modern society and wonder why you are not taken seriously, the exact same way we don't take ISIS propaganda seriously: they have no place in the world. And you have found yourself more often than not on the same side as ISIS. In terms of slavery; the longing for an age of religious totalitarianism; hope of a paradise in the afterlife; strong defense of the slaughter of women and children of the Heathens in the name of religious intolerance; strong support of religious doctrine influencing the Federal Government; abhorrence of homosexuality, etc...
Time after time your moral code lines up in lockstep to ISIS zealots, and you can't bring yourself to understand why we can't take anything you say seriously? It's not that we don't understand you; it's that we understand you perfectly, and are horrified.
It is interesting that one major point of disagreement between you and ISIS is the point of the Trinity. ISIS is more in line with Moses, in that they believe that God is ONE Lord, not three (in One?), although Moses would have been happy to put all of you to death in public.
So much death, so much blood spilling free.
but at the time it was thrilling to get such appreciation from such a stalwart enemy.
One further gentle reminder Faith, NO ONE here, I think, is your stalwart enemy. I don't post much, but I've been on this site weekly almost as long as you...early 2004 was when I started stalking regularly. I've seen people want to pull their hair out in frustration to your arrogant obstinance. But I don't remember anyone wishing any harm or ill health on you ever! No one here wishes anything but the very best for you. I wish you good health, a very long life, and a clear mind unencumbered by brutal superstition.
P.S. Please don't run away.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 5:04 PM Faith has not replied

  
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