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Author Topic:   Religion or Science - How do they compare?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 16 of 882 (831625)
04-22-2018 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by GDR
04-21-2018 9:21 PM


Re: Compatibility of science and religion
GDR writes:
I contend that mankind is continuing to gain a more focused understanding of God all the time.
You can contend that but you've got no actual evidence of it. You have no more idea of God than I have.
From my perspective the only one I know who has it all correct is me, but even then I continue to question where I might be wrong and make corrections.
This is the point - you all make up your own God to suit yourselves.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by GDR, posted 04-21-2018 9:21 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by GDR, posted 04-24-2018 4:53 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 29 of 882 (831788)
04-24-2018 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by GDR
04-24-2018 4:53 PM


Re: Compatibility of science and religion
GDR writes:
You contend that there is no god but you have no actual evidence of that.
Oh come on; you know the rules by now, i don't have to prove there isn't a god.
I understand the nature of God
You do not.
Sure, I can't prove the accuracy of the Gospel stories,
Which is a damn shame because that's all you actually have.
I am prepared to live my life as best I can adhering to his message that we are to love His creation sacrificially, and that is something that I am prepared to take on faith.
Well jolly good for you. But I have to say, I can't find any meaning in those words - it's the sort of preachie bollox spun by shamans to impress the gullible.
as you make up your lack of faith.
You really must stop doing this, how the hell can I make up a lack of something? It's not there to be made up.
Please argue honestly it doesn't do your cause any good to weasel around like this.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by GDR, posted 04-24-2018 4:53 PM GDR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 36 of 882 (831961)
04-28-2018 3:27 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by PaulK
04-28-2018 2:49 AM


Re: Compatibility of science and religion
PaulK writes:
You will note that this argument is a massive non-sequitur.
He knows because he's been told many times. But he keeps making the same logical errors.
(Let alone the fact that even if the logic led to such an intelligence, he still has 99% of the work left to do to show that this assumed intelligence has anything to do with his own interfering god and all that it entails with its 'bells and smells'.)
But it does ask the question of why believers keep making the same mistakes when trying to make their case?
I don't even know why they bother at all. If it was my belief I'd just claim it as a belief, why the hell try to rationalise it?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by PaulK, posted 04-28-2018 2:49 AM PaulK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 04-28-2018 9:44 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 38 by Paboss, posted 04-28-2018 6:28 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 44 of 882 (832037)
04-29-2018 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Faith
04-28-2018 8:46 PM


Re: Compatibility of science and religion
Faith writes:
This story is very common these days. I don't understand how anyone could ever have considered himself to be a Christian without knowing at least what is IN the Bible from hearing sermons on it. Perhaps the fault is in those churches that don't preach the Bible?
These days?
For almost the entire time that the bible stories have existed virtually no one read them. Firstly beacuse the early parts are simple campfire talking stories not written down. Later because printing needed to be invented before it was cheap enough distribute widely and later still because only the priests could read.
So the great unwashed got edited highlights from the pulpit and were told whatever was thought best to keep them in their place. Even in my time the mass was said in Latin.
I bet very, very few so-called Christians have actually read the entire bible and those that have selectively read it. I've read it only once cover to cover. It's a shockingly immoral book in places and to think anyone could believe the early stuff about 7 days of creation, apples, snakes, floods and pillars of salt are literally true is depressing in this day and age.
I wonder, when was the last time you read the bible end to end?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Faith, posted 04-28-2018 8:46 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 122 of 882 (832711)
05-08-2018 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Phat
05-08-2018 4:17 PM


Re: Lady Wisdom
Phat writes:
I believe that God gives me wisdom or at least allows me to have more,
I don't believe that you believe that. But in any case, the evidence you provide here denies it.
but I have no way of proving that he is in any way involved in the loop.
If he was, it would be obvious wouldn't it? The fact that it isn't obviuos should at least give you serious doubts. I mean, if this all powerfull all loving god was even remotely interested in your wellbeing don't you think you'd be less of a mess?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 05-08-2018 4:17 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Faith, posted 05-08-2018 6:49 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 124 of 882 (832722)
05-09-2018 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Faith
05-08-2018 6:49 PM


Re: Lady Wisdom
^^^ well that was a pile of made up apologetic nonsense wasn't it?
In any case we can only receive wisdom at whatever level we've already arrived and God doesn't push us.
In other words, god does nothing. Almost as though he doesn't exist isn't it?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Faith, posted 05-08-2018 6:49 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Faith, posted 05-09-2018 3:28 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 126 of 882 (832725)
05-09-2018 4:48 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Faith
05-09-2018 3:28 AM


Re: Lady Wisdom
Faith writes:
Not made up. Comes from years of reading theology and devotional writers and some who might be called "supersaints."
Right, so you didn't make it up, they did.
God definitely gives wisdom,
If he definitly does this then you should be able to point to definitive evidence of it.
we who receive it are quite aware of the expansion of our understanding, but if you are expecting an ordinary person to suddenly become Solomon himself, forget it.
The huge problem here is that those that claim understanding and wisdom rarely actually demonstrate it. I'm assuming that you are including yourself in that 'we'? I have to say I've never met anyone with such a lack of reasoning ability and wisdom. And all the while congratulating yourself on it. It's quite a feat.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Faith, posted 05-09-2018 3:28 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 135 of 882 (832809)
05-11-2018 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Phat
05-10-2018 9:34 AM


Re: Lady Wisdom - open minded skepticism
Phat writes:
but I don't like my Faith to be determined solely by evidence
I don't believe that.
I think every believer would absolutely love their beliefs to be supported by evidence - why wouldn't they? That's why they come here and make up all the garbage they can think of to 'prove' it. Faith being the poster child.
The fact that they can't provide the evidence is what makes it a belief not a fact.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Phat, posted 05-10-2018 9:34 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by NosyNed, posted 05-11-2018 11:19 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 140 of 882 (832839)
05-12-2018 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by jar
05-12-2018 9:56 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Reading the above, the thing that springs to mind is the greatly missed Hitch's staement that 'god created us sick and commanded us to be well'.
And thinking about ICNT's blithering elsewhere about scientific knowledge in the bible 'there's nothing written in the bible that couldn't have been known by a person around at the time it was written.'

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by jar, posted 05-12-2018 9:56 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Faith, posted 05-12-2018 1:37 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 152 of 882 (832853)
05-13-2018 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Faith
05-12-2018 10:51 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Faith writes:
If it bothers you that we stay home while the state does the deed out of our sight, we could always bring back public stoning.
Quite possibly the most disgusting thing ever written on these boards. There is nothing Christian about you Faith.
Despite the request for those that are without sin to cast the first stone, you'd be first in line wouldn't you?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Faith, posted 05-12-2018 10:51 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 4:57 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 165 of 882 (832867)
05-13-2018 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by Faith
05-13-2018 4:57 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Faith writes:
I won't even defend myself
The word you're looking for is 'can't,
I knew the humorless lefties here would have to have some kind of fit of accusatory indignation.
Right so you do want to defend yourself - are you now claiming humour? I've read what you wrote again, I'm still not seeing the funny side of public stonings.
Hey, put it in your signature so the whole leftie crew can get their daily rush of twisted moral indignation.
You said it Faith. I think you meant it and I note you're not denying it. It ain't Christian is it? Or maybe it is.
No it's not, what it is is fundamentalist. The same fanaticism as all those people you hate. Which, let's be frank, is pretty much everyone isn't it?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 4:57 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 9:09 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 263 of 882 (833273)
05-19-2018 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by Phat
05-19-2018 3:13 AM


Re: What It Means To Be A Christian
Phat writes:
No, but if everyone that my family knew talked of such a critter and mentioned that they believed in one and sung songs honoring the smugwump and TV had people preaching smugwumpism and I heard testimonies of how the smugwump cured cancer and blessed a down and out man and once when I went forward I swore the smugwump whispered in my ear, I would have no further need to explain the critter to you.
People can and do believe absolutely anything won't they Phat? Doesn't this tell you something?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Phat, posted 05-19-2018 3:13 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Phat, posted 05-19-2018 3:26 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 265 of 882 (833275)
05-19-2018 3:44 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by Phat
05-19-2018 3:26 AM


Re: What It Means To Be A Christian
Phat writes:
it tells me that some of us have a need to believe.
Doesn't that make you question the validity of what it is that you believe?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Phat, posted 05-19-2018 3:26 AM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 276 of 882 (833333)
05-20-2018 3:34 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by NoNukes
05-20-2018 2:21 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
NoNukes writes:
A lot of things justify folks doing bad stuff including capitalism, racism, love of family. Most of the stuff that motivates us can also provide justification for doing bad stuff.
That's why we have secular law and regulation, to attempt to contain our excesses.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by NoNukes, posted 05-20-2018 2:21 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9536
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 281 of 882 (833339)
05-20-2018 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 278 by NoNukes
05-20-2018 4:31 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
NoNukes writes:
But the point remains. The fact that people use something to justify evil does not make the something evil.
You have to admit that some parts of the bible are actually evil though don't you?
Purely as an accademic question, would the world be a better or a worse place if the Bible, the Torah and the Koran hadn't been written? My guess would be that so long as they had been replaced by a fair secular constitution it would have been. But it's part of our evolution as a civilisation.
I maintain that it is not a directive from God to do evil, and that the evil comes first, and the excuse or justification comes after.
Well that starts with the presupposition that this god thing is real. But it's pretty obvious that the bible is man-made, hence all the problems resulting from it. God made things really ought to be better.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by NoNukes, posted 05-20-2018 4:31 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
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