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Member (Idle past 5939 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Meaning Of The Trinity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
No part of an egg is an egg. No part of a dozen is a dozen. Take a number line stretching to infinity both directions...divide it into 3 parts....is each part infinite also? No part of a god is a god. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
how can 1/3 of infinity be finite?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
quote:Thus I'll drop the analogy. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ok...here is another analogy. Take an infinite bucket with an infinite number of balls in it. Pour them out. Are they divisible into more than one pile?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
We have several things to discuss, jar. I will include them here--though they may be slightly off-topic in regards to Trinitarian doctrine. Lets focus on the God in three persons idea first, shall we? Lets begin by discussing the nature of God, Creator of all seen and unseen, Jesus His one and only son, and the Holy Spirit. These three attributes are discussed in The Nicene Creed.
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen. Episcopal Church Book of Common Prayer (1979), The Book of Common Prayer Do you personally believe (though of course not know) that God worked through and was in Jesus Christ and the Comforter? And what did you mean when you stated:
jar writes: Jesus is not a male nor is the Holy Spirit.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Lets take this slow. ...And Jesus or the Holy Spirit if they exist today are not alive and so have no gender as we understand it. You and I both believe that Jesus was raised from the dead. Which would make Him again alive. Are you suggesting that He then died of old age after He was raised from the dead?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Take a number line stretching to infinity both directions...divide it into 3 parts....is each part infinite also?
ringo writes:
Perhaps that is Jesus...while on earth, human. He died, (making Him finite) yet was raided from the Dead by one of the other two infinite parts. Does this make it any easier to understand One God in three persons? I've used the same analogy myself. The two end parts are still infinite on one end. The middle part is finite; which part of the Trinity is that? Here is another article on the matter:Doctrine of Trinity ExplainedChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
In another thread you wrote:
jar writes: I believe that this is explained here. The concept of the Trinity is part of the "mystery" of Trinitarian Christianity. It makes no sense, cannot really be explained or understood and almost all of the analogies used as teaching tools are so flawed that they just drive folk away scratching their heads. The only Trinitarian explanation I have ever come across that makes any sense whatsoever is the who vs what dichotomy; WHO they are and WHAT they are but it also includes the necessary understanding that we are no longer talking about monotheism. quote: is anyone still confused?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: The doctrine of the Trinity isn't hard to understand. It's hard to swallow. Lets use logic for a moment. First some hypothetical questions:
I would say..no, not at all. To me, an invisible God makes more sense than a visible one,chiefly because a God by definition would be greater (larger,stronger,more powerful) than anything our modern minds could visibly imagine. I would imagine something more along the lines of a super nova or a black hole. Way bigger than those, however. A Spirit would also make sense as God would...through such a definition be omnipresent. Sorta like the wind. Perhaps Jesus would be a bit of a stretch...a God becoming human and yet still retaining the awesome power of eternity and infinity rolled into one. In the past, humans have dreamed of gods that had bodies...but in this case Jesus is simply an extension of the infinite/eternal. Placed in a package that we can see, touch, smell, communicate with, and...yes sadly...kill. Except that death had no hold on Him.It seems to me that for those who find such a concept hard to swallow, the main reason is simply because through lack of evidence or proof, the human mind has trouble believing. For me its no problem. I was never chained to evidential thinking anyway. Critics may argue that a God that is not within our understanding, definition nor control is too scary. Thats the main reasoning, I think. Heck, it has even been said that if such a God did exist then so and so would oppose such a God. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
So why does it suddenly "make sense" that we can't see something even bigger? All I am trying to emphasize is that there are things bigger than our conception. People who claim to limit God to a fig newton of our imagination have essentially missed the point---that God is more than they can swallow. God is a much bigger concept than ringo feeding people and doing his chores.
We've worked for centuries to unchain ourselves from empty belief and it's an on-going struggle. And what would "full belief" mean? Again...you limit God to a concept that can be fit in a box. You limit it to evidence. You limit it to something you can swallow. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
phat writes:
God is a much bigger concept than ringo feeding people and doing his chores.ringo writes:
According to Paul, we wouldn't want a bigger concept.(Because of our inborn desire for flesh over spirit) The jury is still out on whether we actually need it. Why would we need - or want - a concept bigger than that?You know Pauls basic schpiel. jar writes: A bigger concept than simply doing for others? Paul seemed to think that it was important to surrender your own self will---as he did---and accept Christ---as he also did. Chores still need to get done and until God does them there is no other option but man doing them.Now if you have some bigger concept that has some value or worth then perhaps this is a great time to present it. Critics say he was attempting to start a new religion. Perhaps he didn't think that being Jewish was enough. That's better than some modern day critics who think that God is Himself un necessary and the message does not require Him.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Psalms 51:5 writes: The doctrine which you have described previously as a marketing con...that we are born into sin. I would clarify that we are born into a predisposed tendency towards selfishness, greed, and even idolatry...and that we are unaware of God. (apart from an abstract concept) Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,and in sin did my mother conceive me. Paul markets this concept. Eph 2:1-6 writes: Paul tells us that we follow the spirit of the times...(zeitgeist) until we accept Gods grace through belief in Jesus Christ as living rather than dead.
2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions-it is by grace you have been saved. I suppose critics could say that Paul had an enormous guilt complex over killing christians and by accepting the idea that Jesus was alive, it healed him of his own guilt and shame over the life lived as Saul.
Why is it important?(to surrender your own self will) Paul maintains that we are by nature selfish, egotistical, unloving and proud. (and he should know these emotions...) I can imagine that you were taught differently."Jim, you are responsible for your own actions and what you do." "There is no magic pardon from a failed Messiah!" I would argue that the Messiah is a success based on the belief that He is alive and that we can, in communion with Him, do what needs to be done. Perhaps you were taught that each individual human already has the power within themselves to be responsible, do unto others and for others. I would argue that this message minimizes the importance of the resurrection.
Why is it better? Because we are all in this together. YOU are not responsible. We are.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: We dont know what Paul understood or did not understand. Do you mean to imply that I,Phat, understand? I will readily admit that many who have not accepted Christ behave better than many who have. The purpose of my debate is to support pauls message and to exonerate him from being either devious or mentally ill.
Yet Paul also understands that that is just bullshit and that in fact many who have not accepted Gods grace through belief in Jesus Christ as living rather than dead (what does that even mean) actually behave better than those who have accepted Gods grace through belief in Jesus Christ as living rather than dead.But you still have only offered word salad and not a single reason that anyone should accept Gods grace through belief in Jesus Christ as living rather than dead. I believe that ultimately I will not convince anyone. I believe that Jesus is in fact alive and will draw men (and women) towards Him. And i know your arguments all to well, jar. You will again ask me what "Jesus being alive" even means.
jar writes: I'd have to think about your assertion. In the letters that Paul supposedly authored, there is much talk about love for God and for jesus Christ. Paul also addresses his audience--his followers (well, Christs followers) in each city that he visits. And there is no evidence Paul ever changed when it came to those characteristics. I suppose my question--to myself and to the EvC audience--is whether individual change is ever given to us or whether we are expected to walk it out. (or both) I have no problem with your "Christianity is about what we do" argument.
jar writes: You are correct. I have so far failed at supporting my argument that we all need Jesus. You can argue all you want yet you have never offered any reason that the resurrection is important or explained how someone can be responsible, do unto others and for others other than by doing it themselves. I suppose I am more curious why you believe that Pauline Christianity should be opposed. You may have mentioned that much of it is a cop out. I am not persuaded that you have fully explained why it is so dishonorable to accept an ongoing pardon and why acceptance of such a belief prevents an individual from trying to do their best?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes: What you actually have to explain is not all this biblical nonsense but why, having made us this way, he then commands us to be different. Are you asking me to explain what I believe that Gods motives are? Or more likely are you asking me to explain why God as marketed wants humans to go the extra mile?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
OK. I believe that God never designed the flaws. The flaws were and are a response to our rebellion...our desire to be free from authority and be our own god(s).
You yourself have said that you would defend satan in court, that you would protest a God who "fried your friends"....and that your one thing you would say to God was to leave you alone. By nature you challenge authority. Not that there is anything wrong with you---you are who you are, and I believe that God fully accepts you. Do you have any desire to communicate with Him? What would you say today...as you read this?
What does it mean to "accept Christ"? If it means something other than accepting what He told you to DO, for God's sake tell us. It means to actually talk with Him. It means allowing Him to prompt you to change yourself for the better...to conform to His character. It means to quit being so stubborn and independent and trust someone in authority for once. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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