Jesus: Why I believe He was a failure.

Iblis writes:This has already been covered by purpledawn pretty thoroughly in Message 173, but I thought I would just go ahead and drag out my elephant-gun and see if I can clear it up even more for your audience.

Ps. 89
(3) I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn to David my servant, (4) your seed will I establish for ever, and build up your throne to all generations. Selah.Ps. 89
(35) Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie to David. (36) His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. (37) It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.Ps. 132
(11) The Lord has sworn in truth to David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of your body will I set upon your throne. (12) If your children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon your throne for evermore... (17) There will I make the horn of David to bud; I have ordained a lamp for my anointed.Is. 9
(6) For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (7) Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.Jer. 23
(5) Behold, the days come, says the Lord, that I will raise to David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. (6) In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. [When?] (7) Therefore, behold, the days come, says the Lord, that they shall no more say, The Lord lives, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; (8) But, The Lord lives, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.Jer. 30
(3) For, lo, the days come, says the Lord, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, says the Lord; and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it...(9) But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up to them. Jer. 33
(7) And I will cause the captivity of Judah and the captivity of Israel to return, and will build them, as at the first...(15) In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up to David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. (16) In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely; and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The Lord our righteousness. (17) For thus says the Lord; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;... (20)Ezek. 34
(23) And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. (24) And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it. (25) And I will make with them a covenant of peace,...Ezek.37
(24) And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd; they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. (25) And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever; and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. (26) Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. (27) My tabernacle [mishkan, ,] also shall be with them; yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. (28) And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.Hos. 3
(4) For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim; (5) After-ward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God, and David their king; and shall fear the Lord and his goodness in the latter days. Amos 9
(11) In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old; (12) That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, says the Lord that does this.Zech. 12
(8) In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them. (9) And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. (10) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications; and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.Zec. 13:1
In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness...(6) And one shall say to him, What are these wounds in your hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. (7)(Enter Jesus:
Matt. 12
(42) Saying, What think you of Christ? whose son is he? They say to him, The Son of David. (43)Luke. 1
(32) He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God shall give to him the throne of his father David.

Briterican writes:And it is comments like this that make me regret my disrespectful tone. I hope you'll appreciate that since it is debate, it can get heated, but you displayed the wisdom of your years (in terms of courtesy) in your polite replies to my inciteful ones.

Briterican writes:---- now I should get out of here as I am completely off topic and I'm not adding anything to the discussion

PD writes:Since you disagree with physical, then you must be talking about ethereal (of or relating to the regions beyond the earth). You haven't shown that the text refers to an ethereal kingdom.

36:1 And thou, son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of Jehovah.36:2 Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Because the enemy hath said against you, Aha! and, The ancient high places are ours in possession;36:3 therefore prophesy, and say, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Because, even because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that ye might be a possession unto the residue of the nations, and ye are taken up in the lips of talkers, and the evil report of the people;36:4 therefore, ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord Jehovah: Thus saith the Lord Jehovah to the mountains and to the hills, to the watercourses and to the valleys, to the desolate wastes and to the cities that are forsaken, which are become a prey and derision to the residue of the nations that are round about; 36:5 therefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the nations, and against all Edom, that have appointed my land unto themselves for a possession with the joy of all their heart, with despite of soul, to cast it out for a prey.36:6 Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel, and say unto the mountains and to the hills, to the watercourses and to the valleys, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I have spoken in my jealousy and in my wrath, because ye have borne the shame of the nations:36:7 therefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah: I have sworn, (saying), Surely the nations that are round about you, they shall bear their shame.36:8 But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people Israel; for they are at hand to come.36:9 For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn into you, and ye shall be tilled and sown; 36:10 and I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it; and the cities shall be inhabited, and the waste places shall be builded;36:11 and I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and be fruitful; and I will cause you to be inhabited after your former estate, and will do better [unto you] than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am Jehovah.36:12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of children.36:13 Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Because they say unto you, Thou (land) art a devourer of men, and hast been a bereaver of thy nation;36:14 therefore thou shalt devour men no more, neither bereave thy nation any more, saith the Lord Jehovah;36:15 neither will I let thee hear any more the shame of the nations, neither shalt thou bear the reproach of the peoples any more, neither shalt thou cause thy nation to stumble any more, saith the Lord Jehovah.36:16 Moreover the word of Jehovah came unto me, saying,36:17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their way and by their doings: their way before me was as the uncleanness of a woman in her impurity.36:18 Wherefore I poured out my wrath upon them for the blood which they had poured out upon the land, and because they had defiled it with their idols;36:19 and I scattered them among the nations, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.36:20 And when they came unto the nations, whither they went, they profaned my holy name; in that men said of them, These are the people of Jehovah, and are gone forth out of his land.36:21 But I had regard for my holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations, whither they went.36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: I do not [this] for your sake, O house of Israel, but for my holy name, which ye have profaned among the nations, whither ye went.36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which hath been profaned among the nations, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the nations shall know that I am Jehovah, saith the Lord Jehovah, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. 36:24 For I will take you from among the nations, and gather you out of all the countries, and will bring you into your own land.36:25 And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep mine ordinances, and do them.36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.36:31 Then shall ye remember your evil ways, and your doings that were not good; and ye shall loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.36:32 Nor for your sake do I (this), saith the Lord Jehovah, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel.36:33 Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: In the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will cause the cities to be inhabited, and the waste places shall be builded.36:34 And the land that was desolate shall be tilled, whereas it was a desolation in the sight of all that passed by.36:35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are fortified and inhabited.36:36 Then the nations that are left round about you shall know that I, Jehovah, have builded the ruined places, and planted that which was desolate: I, Jehovah, have spoken it, and I will do it.37:14 And I will put my Spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I will place you in your own land: and ye shall know that I, Jehovah, have spoken it and performed it, saith Jehovah.37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, whither they are gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: 37:22 and I will make them one nation in the land, upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all; and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all;37:23 neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will save them out of all their dwelling-places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. 37:24 And my servant David shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in mine ordinances, and observe my statutes, and do them. 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, they, and their children, and their children`s children, for ever: and David my servant shall be their prince for ever.

PD writes:I'm not arguing that the kingdom is ethereal. I contend that 2 Samuel 7:13 speaks of an Earthly kingdom.
Jesus didn't rule over an Earthly kingdom.Thanks for supporting my position.

PD writes:A son adopted by a member of the royal line cannot become heir to the throne.

Peg writes:this is a fatal flaw in your reasoning on the scriptures because the bible is a coherent whole and needs to be read in whole. In MSG 284, you give a rundown of the scripture about David but then immediately apply it to Solomon.

PaulK writes:Let's suppose that you are correct in your reading. If so we have the fact that it has not happened. Nor have you even shown that Jesus would be qualified to be this ruler if it ever did happen. So it's obviously no use in arguing that Jesus was not a failure.

hERICtic writes: What "cited" prophecies are there regarding Jesus? Without using dual meanings and metaphors, which ones are you refering to?What "cited" prophecies are there regarding Jesus? Without using dual meanings and metaphors, which ones are you refering to?

PD writes:Then those who disagree should answer clearly and not change the laws of language to support their dogma, not what the Bible says, but their dogma.

PD writes:Actually I think the skeptics are the ones actually bringing the observable data into the light. If your data doesn't hold up under the spot light, then the data is faulty.
The Bible doesn't speak of global dispersion, just dispersion within the neighboring empires of the time. Not The Planet

PD writes:Why complicate the issue with an unnecessary prerequisite that doesn't match what we know of Jesus?
As Brian pointed out in Message 48, the servant songs do not refer to a future messiah. The wording itself (you know the word of God) supports that position. This has been debated ad nauseam on this board.

PD writes:I don't understand why those who claim to believe the Bible contains the "word of God" and the manuscripts were "authored" by God, don't accept what the text actually says.

PD writes:Jesus doesn't fit the prerequisites for the Jewish Messiah. He may have served as a messiah for the gentiles, but he doesn't fit the requirements for the Jewish Messiah.

PD writes:See you say that, but you don't provide the OT verses that go along with your position and why it is a fulfillment of the OT verses.
The messiah was to be a ruler, per the messianic prophecies. Do any of the messianic prophecies state that the messiah will prophesy that the 2nd temple (515 BCE) will fall?

PD writes:Again, you don't provide the OT prophecies you're referring to or that the messiah was to have prophetic powers. He needs to fit all the requirements. The main job of the messiah was to free the Jews from their oppressors.

pd writes:It's not my job to find support for your arguments.