Is the bible authoritive and truly inspired?

This topic is proposed with this statement from another thread in mind

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Some Bible writers had authority to make laws and some didn't. So explain why these authors, known and unknown, have the authority to make a legal law? Inspiration is not authority.

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Of the forty men who wrote the bible, all of these were imperfect, subject to weaknesses and error. The 3 questions I would like to discuss is:

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1. Was it possible for these imperfect men to produce a record that is actually Gods message?

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2. How do we know they did not write of their own impulse, but were inspired by God as they claim?

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3. How do we know the writings we have today are the same as they were written by the original men who wrote it.

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1. Was it possible for these imperfect men to produce a record that is actually Gods message? The writer of Acts says that God used Angels to transmit his messages to humans. Acts 7:53. He never spoke personally to any man, but his Angels did. Moses was instructed: "Write down for yourself these words." And the same applied to the msg's of the Prophets. Sometimes though he used dreams and visions to communicate his message to humans one example being Daniel 9 where he has a vision of the wild beasts.
It was then up to the Bible writer to select words and expressions to describe in meaningful terms what they had seen.At this point it may be seen as a work of men for the reason that the writers had to put pen to paper, however God also used one other thing in order to accomplish this work....holy spirit. David says that it Gods spirit was upon his tongue at 2Samuel 23:2. So the spirit of God was used to guide the writers.It means the writer had his mind stimulated by Gods spirit and was moved to express the inspired message in his own words. An evidence of this is the fact that some writers openly admit that they did not understand the message.
Daniel 12:8-9 8Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand; so that I said: "O my lord, what will be the final part of these things?" And he went on to say: "Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end"This is one reason why we can be sure that the bible writers were not merely writing for their own glory or prestige to obtain a following of disciples.Now while its true that some of the writings were written well after the events (gospels for example) Gods spirit was responsible for producing an accurate record. Jesus explained to his apostles that a helper would 'bring back to your minds all the things I told you" at John 14:26
So it certainly is possible that the messages God gave to imperfect men, were transmitted accurately through Gods own guidance.
____________________________________________________________________________2. How do we know they did not write of their own impulse, but were inspired by God as they claim? There are examples of writers giving their own thoughts and Paul was one who openly did this on occasion ie 1Cor 7:12, 25 & 40 "To the others I say, yes, I, not the Lord" & "Now concerning virgins I have no command from the Lord, but I give my opinion." Obviously for the topic being discussed, Paul could not quote a direct teaching from Jesus so he gave his "opinion" and stated it to be such. But the fact that some writers did this, does not mean that their writing was not inspired by God because if he was writing under direction of Gods spirit then his opinion had divine guidance and expressed Gods own view.This is confirmed by the fact that the apostle Peter accepted Pauls writings as 'written in wisdom' and his letters were handed around to the congregations by Peter (see 2Pet 3:15-16)
If Peter had any doubts about Pauls inspiration, he would not have promoted those letters.The Bible quotes the statements of men or relates what they did under certain circumstances and the context generally makes it clear whether their course should be imitated or avoided. A good example is the book of Job. large portions of that book deal with the wrong views expressed by Job and his 3 friends about God. When facts were misapplied, the bible writer (moses in this case) clearly points it out and shows that the words of the men were not from God.However, there are other passages where all the details are not spelled out and Gods view on the matter is not addressed. Its in these passages where flaws and contradictions appear to be found. That is why some persons, on reading a certain account, question whether God was really just and fair in what he did.Now to me, this is another evidence of divine inspiration because if this book was merely mans, and those men were trying to control people by their invention of a religion, then why leave such gaps that cannot be filled? This isnt something a human writer would deliberately do if they were trying to win converts because it would be defeating the purpose of drawing people and rather repel them. If you want evidence for how people are repelled from the bible just look at the discussion im having with DevilsAdvocate in the 'fundamentalist' thread lol.So Why would a divinely inspired book create these contentious accounts that seem more designed to repel people rather then draw them? Its how God tests our heart according to Hebrews 4:12

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"For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints and [their] marrow, and [is] able to discern thoughts and intentions of [the] heart"

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.Someone who really doesnt want God in their life can quite easily close the book and throw it in the bin after reading some of those accounts we've been discussing in the other thread. But God wants us to search deeper then what merely appears on the pages. It really does require a lot of deep study to understand why such things happened and how God views things...not only does it require study, but it requires his spirit and this is something you only get if you ask for it.So for these reasons, we can be sure that the writings were inspired by God and not merely written by men. Men would have buttered it up, and made themselves look like amazing holy vessels the same way the priest of today do. Yet they didnt. Even Moses was shown to be punished and refused entry to the promised land by God. If Moses was writing for himself there is no way in the world he would have humiliated himself in such a way. The evidence is that God moved/inspired what was recorded and this makes the bible authoritative in everything it says. And for this reason the laws and commands cannot be viewed as coming from men, but they should be viewed as coming from God just as the Mosaic law was. Even though moses was the one who wrote it and dictated it to the people, It was coming from God. The same with Jesus, the same with the Apostles and yes, even Paul.
________________________________________________________________________3. How do we know the writings we have today are the same as they were written by the original men who wrote it. I know this is a contentious issue for many people because after thousands of years you would expect errors to creep in and this has happened.Thankfully, they still have many thousands of the original language manuscripts available today. (One of the oldest being the septuagaint from 300 BCE) They use these original language manuscripts to compare with the later ones and have been able to trace errors. The errors that have been identified have always been very minor and mostly to do with grammar or spelling or duplicating a word or sentence.
In some instances though, additions have been made which were not seen in earlier manuscripts. One example is 1 John 5:7, which seems to teach the trinity. This verse speaks of the 'three witness bearers' However this statement is not found in any manuscript earlier then the 15th century...so its very obvious that its an inaccuracy...perhaps deliberately inserted to perpetuate an untrue doctrine.Obviously no original copies exist today because the writers wrote on perishable materials such as papyrus and vellum. But the method of how those originals were copied and recopied is what makes the ones we have today so accurate. The men who made the copies were called scribes, it was a profession, and their only job was to make copies of scrolls. When they found the dead sea scrolls, it proved beyond doubt that the scriptures had been accurately copied for centuries.So we do know that the writings we have today are as accurate as the very oldest living manuscripts. Those manuscripts were created by the jewish scribes who were a professional group dedicated to the copying of the law. They had methodical ways to make copies, the masoretes for instance had to count each letter to ensure accuracy. So it was more then just a matter or writing up a copy by hand...they were extremely meticulous, going so far as to count not only the words copied but the letters also. Also, because Hebrew consisted only of consonants, if a single letter was added or left out it would have changed one word into another. The slightest error of a single letter would mean that entire section of the roll was rejected as unfit for synagogue use.
So the copies had to be absolute before they were accepted by the jewish priests. A copiest was not allowed to write even a single word from memory, they had to read the words aloud from the scroll they were copying before they put pen to paper.But again, the serophim (BCE copyists) did make alterations in later manuscripts. The Masoretes (CE copyists), were able to see the alterations made by the earlier Sopherim, and they recorded them in the margin or at the end of the Hebrew text...so the masoretic manuscripts highlight the changes that took place in the same way our modern scholars are able to see the small errors made in some copied manuscripts.The fact that we know what the errors are means they can be corrected and therefore we have a bible that is essentially the same as what was originally written. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.Edited by Peg, : No reason given.Edited by Peg, : No reason given.Edited by Peg, : No reason given.Edited by Admin, : Fix spelling of title.Edited by Admin, : Fix title again.

Moses (leader chosen by God)- genesis, exodus, Leviticus, deuteronomy, Job, Psalm 90 & 91Joshua (army commander appointed by Moses) - JoshuaSamuel, Gad & Nathan (prophets) - Judges, Ruth, 1 SamuelGad and Nathan (prophets) - 2 SamuelJeremiah (prophet) - 1 Kings, 2 Kings, Jeremiah, LemantationsEzra (priest, scholar, copyist) - 1 Chronicles, 2 Chronicles, EzraNehemiah (Slave of King Artaxerxes)- NehemiahSolomon (3rd King of Isreal) Psalm 127, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, song of solomnMordecai (Slave of King Artaxerxes)- EsterDavid (Shepherd & later King of isreal)- wrote 73 of the Psalms.Asaph (Musician & musical arranger at temple)- wrote 12 PsalmsSon(s) of Korah (Levites in temple service) wrote 11 psalmsHeman (Prominent Isrealite of tribe of Judah) wrote Psalm 88Ethan (Prominent Isrealiste of the tribe of Judah) wrote Psalm 89Isaiah (Prophet) - IsaiahEzekiel (Priest & Prophet) - Ezekiel,Daniel (Captive slave and Prophet) - DanielHosea (Prophet) - HoseaJoel (Prophet) - JoelAmos (prophet) - AmosObadiah (prophet) - ObadiahJonah(prophet)- JonahMicah (prophet)- MicahNahum (prophet)- NahumHabukkuk (prophet) - HabukkukZephaniah (prophet) - ZephaniahHaggai (priest and prophet) - HaggaiZechariah (prophet) - ZechariahMalachi (prophet) - Malachithe traditional view is that the canon of the Hebrew Scriptures was fixed by the end of the fifth centuryBCE by Nehamiah. There is also the word of Josephus in his work Against Apion where he referes to all of the above books as recognized by the Jewish religious body of his day. (note that none of the apocryphal books were accepted in jewish cannon)
_________________________________________________________________Matthew (Jew, son of a tax collector, Apostle of Christ)- Gospel of MatthewMark(Disciple of Christ) - Gospel of MarkLuke (Disciple of Chirst) - Gospel of Luke, Acts of ApostlesJohn (Apostle of Christ) - Gospel of John,Paul (Apostle of Christ) - Romans, 1-2Corinthians, Galations, Ephesians, Philipians, Colosians, 1-2Thessalonians, 1-2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, Hebrews,James (1/2 brother of Jesus Christ by Mary)- JamesPeter (Apostle of Christ)- 1-2 PeterJude (1/2 brother of Jesus Christ by Mary) - Judecertain early christians began to keep collections of the chrsitain writings and what we have in our bibles today (all of the above) are the books that were recognized as being inspired books in many of the earliest catelogues. (Cyril of Jerusalem & Athanasius of Alexandria had compiled each book listed above)______________________________________Im happy to discuss any of these individually. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

I go with the traditional Jewish books of their Torah cannon.I do not agree with the catholic cannon because they included apocryphal books as part of their cannon. Those books contradict the bible on many counts which proves that they were not written under Gods direction. Jesus did use the Septuagint and we know that because the NT writers wrote hundreds of direct quotations and references to the Hebrew Scriptures based on the Septuagint.But, with regard to the apocryphal writings, it cannot be stated categorically that the Apocryphal books were originally included in that work. Its true that apocryphal books are found in many early copies of the Septuagint but since no original copies of the Septuagint are extant, it cannot be proven that they were always a part of it.What can be proven is the fact that Apocryphal writings were written after the translation of the Septuagint began.
The scolars in Alexandria who created the Septuagint would have chosen the books to translate before they began the work. If no apocryphal books were written before 280bce then obviously none of them could have been on the original list of books selected for translation.more tangible evidence exists in the writings of Josephus (against Apion) where he lists all the holy books that were viewed as sacred writings and he does not mention one apocryphal book.Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

ok, well lets put the authors names aside, and just go with your view that they were written by unknown men.How does that change what they wrote? that is a remarkable point that adds weight to the books being trully inspired.Think about it, if the books were created by men alone, there should be nothing stopping more men from adding new books? Yet the bible cannon seems to have a protective wall around it which has caused it to remain unchanged after thousands of years.if God was able to inspire the books , then he's also able to protect them. what do you mean by the writers in the 'protestant bible'
Protestants use the same bible as everyone else...so excuse my ignorance here but im not sure what you mean???

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Exodus 3:2 Then Jehovah’s angel appeared to him in a flame of fire in the midst of a thornbush.

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Judges 6:11 Later Jehovah’s angel came and sat under the big tree that was in Oph”rah,...Gid”e·on said to him: “Excuse me, my lord, but if Jehovah is with us, then why has all this come upon us, ...14Upon that Jehovah faced him and said: “Go in this power of yours, and you will certainly save Israel out of Mid”i·an’s palm. Do I not send you?"

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There is also the account of the parents of Samson. This account says “Jehovah’s angel” and “the angel of the true God.” spoke to them at Judges 13:2-18 In verse 22, Manoah says to his wife: “We shall positively die, because it is God that we have seen.” Of course he didnt see God face to face, but he saw the representative...the angel.the Apostle Paul called the Mosaic law "the word spoken through angels" at Hebrews 2:2 and Galatians 3:19and John says at John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained himAnd also with regard to Stephens speech, in Acts 7:37-51 he explains that the 'angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai' is in fact Jesus. The christians were presenting new ideas, thats true, but these ideas were not out of harmony with the hebrew scriptures.

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This is the Moses that said to the sons of Israel, 'God will raise up for YOU from among YOUR brothers a prophet like me.'
This is he that came to be among the congregation in the wilderness with the angel that spoke to him on Mount Si”nai and with our forefathers,
and he received living sacred pronouncements to give YOU...vs 51'Obstinate men and uncircumcised in hearts and ears, YOU are always resisting the holy spirit; as YOUR forefathers did, so YOU do. Which one of the prophets did YOUR forefathers not persecute? Yes, they killed those who made announcement in advance concerning the coming of the righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers YOU have now become,YOU who received the Law as transmitted by angels but have not kept it.

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Paul wrote: 1 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." edgar goodspeed may not believe that Peter wrote Peter, but the writer says he is 'Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ.(2Pet1:1) and says that this is 'the second letter I am writing you.' (2pet3:1) The christians who received the letter had no reason to doubt who it came from. Peter was an apostle of Christ. according to the oldest tradition, by both Jewish and early Christian scholars, Moses was the writer. Its written in almost identical style to the Pentateuch more then any other writing. Also, Moses came from the area where Job lived...i know you dont believe Job was a real person, but there is nothing in the story that makes Job an allegorical character. although i havnt mentioned it here yet, but prophecies are another sure proof of Gods inspiration. Im not sure if you've studied the prophecies but i have and they provide outstanding evidence of inspiration. I said original 'languages'the Hebrew scriptures were translated by Jewish scholars into Greek for the Greek speaking Jews. That translation became known as the Septuagint and it is an original language because the Jews were Greek speaking. They translated the scriptures themselves to match a new mother tongue.Jesus and his disciples were greek and hebrew speaking. This is why the Septuagint is a valuable translation because they could read and write in both languages so the Septuagint would have been accurately translated. the fact is, we have a bible that has been accurately preserved and we can compare any teaching that someone may want to introduce. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

Its a good question. A canon is merely a collection that is agreed to be inspired. Many books were written, but not all proved to be inspired and so the Jews did not include all books in their special collection of 'inspired' books.
The reason for that is because the basis for establishing the genuineness of the book related to the books fulfillment of prophecy and the consistency of its message with other inspired books.How did the Pentateuch become accepted as an inspired book? the proclamations by God were witnessed by the people. They had supernatural phenomenon displayed to them to show that Moses had really come from God...the pronouncements of Moses came to be fulfilled for all to see. So the jews knew that the books written by Moses were authentic and they were accepted as such. To this day they are accepted as authentic.Later writings also had to go thru the same process. They were not automatically accepted, but when the people saw how the fulfillments of what was written took place, then they accepted them as authentic and inspired.Evidence of inspiration was the number one requirement for a book to be included in the cannon. The Jews were not silly, in fact they often berated and persecuted (& killed) their prophets because of their own skepticism to the proclamations. (Just look at what they did to Jesus) It wasnt until the words of the prophets were fulfilled without any doubt that they would accept their words. Jesus accepted the Jewish cannon, why shouldnt we?
Josesphus showed that the books that were accepted as inspired and holy were those written prior to 200 bce. The apocrypha came after adn they were not accepted. I wouldnt call them the 'origin' of christianity, I would be more inclined to say that Christ was the origin of it. I know the Catholic Church claims to be the founder, but that is because they set 'a' canon at the Council of Carthage in 397 ce. But lets face it, christianity started much earlier with Jesus.
So its a bit of a rich claim to make that they are the founders of christianity. its not that the protestants 'changed' the canon. its that they didnt accept the aprocrypha. Even Jerome, the translator of the roman catholic Latin Vulgate, didnt accept those books. He said all apocryphal books should be avoided because they contain much that is faulty and out of harmony with scripture.So the protestants refused to accept books which appeared out of harmony with inspired writings. If the catholic church were being led by God, why couldnt they see the same thing? no, man chose the canon but not all men were guided by God to do so. Just as Hitler was not being guided by God, even though he claimed to be. the evidence is by the books fulfillment. If the things spoken of came to pass, then that was evidence that the book was inspired.

the new testament was written in greek by the Jewish diciples/apostles, this shows that they were a little more then familiar with it. the internal evidence shows Jesus reading aloud in Hebrew in a synagogue and also there is Eusubias who says that Matthew first wrote his Gospel account in Hebrew the mother tongue. (Patrologia Graeca, Vol. XXII, col. 941) Jerome also mentions mathews gospel as being written in Hebrew (Concerning Illustrious Men chpt 3)and says that in his day (4th century) it was being held in a library in Cesare.this tells us something about the language they spoke...it was a mix of a greek, aramaic (for jesus used some aramaic names) and hebrew.

what errors are you referring to?Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

how do you know that modern scholars are correct?

what is the corporate criteria?

i'll start with the books of Moses.the prase 'The book of the law of Moses' and similar references to the first five books of the Bible, are found from the time of Moses successor, Joshua, onward. Joshua was a close assistent to Moses so the fact that he calls the writings 'the law of Moses' testifies that Moses was the author. Almost every other writer , about 200 references, says that law 'of Moses' This is likely why the Jews never needed to question who wrote the Pentateuch. Even Jesus himself said the Pentateuch was the 'Law of Moses'If Joe Blow wrote the pentateuch, it would have been referred to as 'the law of Joe Blow'

of course evidence was part of the process. The prophets were sent to give warning messages and instructions on what the people needed to do to rectify their situation with God.Before the destruction of Jerusalem in 607BCE, God spoke to the last Davidic king on the throne of Jerusalem, Zedekiah, and referred to the 'time of the error of the end.' Jerusalem's 'time of the end' was then forty years long, beginning when God sent Jeremiah the prophet to warn them of Gods judgements against them.How did they respond to Jeremiah? The rulers and people conspired to put Jeremiah to death because of the message he delivered them. A priest named Pashhur, publicly struck him and had him put in the stocks and his close associates were killed by the rulers and priests. Read Jeremiahs writings.Do you think that the books Jeremiah wrote were accepted as authentic at that time? No of course they weren't. Jeremiah was not considered a truly inspired prophet until after the prophecies he wrote down had come true. When Jerusalem was invaded and destroyed by the Babylonians in 607bce, then the people knew that Jeremiah was true prophet and his writings were inspired.thats how it is decided if a book should go into the canon.

i can only give you biblical references and i know you dont want them so im not going to list thembut i will just say that the contemporaries of Moses confirmed that Moses was the writer of the law and that is all that I need to know that Moses was the author. If just one or two people mentioned moses as the writer, then maybe you'd have a point...but when all the jews and all the hebrew writers make the same claim, it must have been a very well established and provable fact.

the traditional Jewish canon was accepted by Jesus and the early Christian congregation. It was only from those writings that the Jesus and the christians quoted thus confirming they accepted that cannon as inspired writings. No. The writers wrote many prophecies. For instance Moses wrote about the messiah as the seed who would crush the serpents head. That prophecy has still not been fulfilled, yet the Pentateuch has been considered an inspired book for centuries.So not all of the prophecies had to be fulfilled for the book to be considered inspired. In the case of Moses, the people had supernatural phenomenon which showed them Moses was being inspired. while thats true, at that time the prophecies regarding Jesus return had not come true, but it didnt matter because the christians had just seen Jesus raised from the dead. They saw many miracles which they themselves were performing as an evidence of Gods guarantee. This is why the congregations accepted the writings of the NT apostles and other writers...they had evidence of Gods backing. It wasnt just the words of men with no proof. firstly, the catholics did not need to create a new hebrew canon. The one used by the Jews and Jesus and the christians was well established and well used. If there was anything wrong with the Jewish hebrew canon, then they would not have used it.the roman catholic church claims responsibility for cataloging the NT at their council late in 397ce, but thats not really true because there are a number of catalogs of the NT that date prior to that date and they agree exactly with our present canon, and some others omit only Revelation.
The four Gospels, Acts, and 12 of the apostle Pauls letters were universally accepted before the end of the 2nd century. The Muratorian Fragment is one of these early catalogs. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

Josephus clearly identified the writings of Moses as part of the canon in the 1st century, but before that time the 70 hebrew scholars from Alexandria who translated the Septuagint in the 2nd century BCE included Moses writings thus showing that in their time, the hebrew canon included the writings of Moses too.Moses wrote in Genesis 3:15 "And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel".this is the bibles very first prophecy and its concerning the one who will come and destroy the serpant. The only one who can do that is the Messiah, so this is a messianic prophecy.
The book of Revelation identifies the original serpent as Satan the Devil, and we know that it is Satan who Jesus will fight and destroy.So prophecies are sprinkled throughout the writings. Not everything is prophecy.i will reply to the rest shortly.

The pentateuch was accepted as an inspired word right from the time it was given to the nation after they left egypt. It was the foundation of the jewish religion. It provided the means of worship, set out the requirements, stipulated how the sacrifices were to be given and why ...Judaism itself rests on the books of the pentateuchall other bible writers witness to the fact that the Pentateuch was Gods law given through the hand of Moses and all the requirments of Judaism was found in it. (Joshua 1:7 Judges 3:4 2Kings 18:6 Malachi 4:4)
Such men as David (1Ki 2:1-3), Daniel (9:11), Ezra (6:18), Nehemiah (8:1), Jesus (Mark 12:26 Luke 16:29 John 7:19), Luke 24:27), and John (1:17) make references to this work as that of Moses and handed to him by God himself. Jesus himself acknowledged that Moses was the writer (Mark 10:3-5 John 5:46-47)It was always accepted by the Jews as the inspired word of God. Genesis lists the events from the creation of man to the death of Jacob in Egypt in 1657BCEExodus records the events to do with their deliverance and the inauguration of the Law Convenent and of the construction of the Tabernacle from 1657 to 1512BCELeviticus give information about the Levitical priesthood and the requirements of worshipNumbers records the 40year wilderness trek down to 1473BCEand Deuteronomy provides Moses final instructions to the new generation of Isrealites where were about to cross over into the promised land.The jews never questioned these books because they were with moses when he was writing them. every book of the bible contains prophecy, not just some...they all do. this does not demonstrate that Moses was not the author of Genesis.What it does is show that the scribes who were making copies of the Pentacheut were keeping it up to date. Its similar today. As words in our language change, so do they change those words in newer translations.... im sure you've read a king james version of the bible for instance, The old english they used back then is not longer used by us so they make new versions in the language we understand.Another example is that of the word 'Shambles'
In the king james version this word is in a NT verse about the local Meat Market where Paul was preaching. Shambles is an old english word that means slaughter house. But today we dont use that word anymore so the new translations use the word 'meat market' instead of 'shambles'I believe this is what the scribes may have been doing in the case of the city of Dan. Of course there are no original scriptures written by Moses own hand today, that would be impossible. But the scribes who made copies of Moses original did make these sorts of changes as the need arose.