9-11 Conspiracy

Did you read the whole report?First, there a lot of "I don't remember" and "I don't recall". You are supporting your entire position on one persons testimony that there was a mistake in the mist of this same person saying repetedly that they don't recall a lot of what happened. How do we know she actually got this right? She doesn't recall a lot of what happened but got this part dead-balls on?I still feel that NORAD's timelines were accurate because NORAD takes down timelines accurately. If all you have is this one persons testimony then I personally am not convinced.Like I said, this isn't some half-ass operation. There isn't some dude at NORAD with a notepad writing down things as they happen in real time. This is all recorded by computers and printed to give the accurate timelines. This one person account, as vague as it is, does nothing in my eyes other than present her personal account of the situation. That -vs- NORAD's actual computerized timlines isn't enough to sway me.- Oni

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Petition to Bailout Comedy The Laugh Factory is imploring Congress to immediately fund what owner Jamie Masada calls an "Economic Cheer-Up." If Congress fails to act quickly, the Laugh Factory comedians are planning to march to Washington and plea to President Obama.

Oh please. I see we're going to start on the wrong foot already... I was hoping for evidence based assertions, not: Or... In which we now have to believe that our government would willingly have a pilot, or group of military personel, killed in order to go into Iraq. That's no better than saying they planed 911 to go into Iraq. Fair enough, now this is a debatable point.The lesson learn from Vietnam was that if you don't have support of the US public you can't stay at war for a long time. A lesson learned and corrected here and now in Iraq. Source

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In response to the anti-war movement, the U.S. Congress passed the Case-Church Amendment in June 1973 prohibiting further U.S. military intervention. In April 1975, North Vietnam captured Saigon. North and South Vietnam were reunified the following year.

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This current invasion of the Middle East is going to be for a long while. Therefore a huge support from the US public was needed, and like the lesson learned in Vietnam, if you don't have that support you can't stay there. Now, it has shifted to "if we leave the place gets chaotic", so now we have to stay so that future chatastrophy is avoided.The general public, even though they, for the most part, don't support the war against Iraq, still see that our presence is needed for stability - and a US presence in Iraq will be there for a long while - reduced, of course. But, Afgahnistan is a different animal. Due to the media demonization of OBL (and never actually finding out who financed the attacks) current public opinion is that we must finish the job we started in Afgahn. So there is still support of a strong US military presence in the Middle East.And this is all possible because of 911, or would have been also possible with any other at home attack. But not by simply stating that Iraq has WMD's, they needed something massive to point to. Many countries have WMD's, but we don't invade them. It took an attack by arabs on US soil to allow for an invasion into arab land. Who the fuck is saying this? Why don't you pay attention to what is being discussed before you ramble off into conspiracy theory accusations that no one is advocating for. You make this statment when our defense budget is currently the highest it's ever been?! Source

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Defence expenditure in the US will equal that of the rest of the world combined within 12 months, making it "increasingly pressing" for European contractors to develop a "closer association" with the US, corporate finance group PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC) says.

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Its report - 'The Defence Industry in the 21st Century' by PwC's global aerospace and defence leader Richard Hooke - adds that "the US is in the driving seat", raising the prospect of a future scenario in which it could "dominate the supply of the world's arms completely".

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The US defence budget reached US$417.4 billion in 2003 - 46 per cent of the global total.

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Less than two per cent of the US defence budget is spent outside its home market, the report notes, and of this around one per cent goes to UK contractors.

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Hooke says: "The message for management teams in all this - apart from the obvious for US contractors to monopolise the industry - is that they will fail to maximise value if they fail to define accurately the business segment in which they operate.

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"For Europe and the UK in particular, it means, right now, an increasingly pressing need to develop a closer association with the US market."

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Defense Secretary Robert Gates said Monday that he wants to "profoundly reform" the way the Pentagon does business, calling for more money for unmanned spy planes, helicopters and other items for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. His new budget would eliminate a multibillion dollar satellite program and end production of the F-22 fighter jet.

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Source

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Fiscal Year 2009 Department Of Defense Budget Released

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President George W. Bush today sent to Congress his Defense budget for Fiscal Year 2009. The budget provides $515.4 billion in discretionary authority for the Department of Defense (DoD), a $35.9 billion or 7.5 percent increase over the enacted level for Fiscal Year 2008.

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The Fiscal Year 2009 budget reflects the President’s priorities and sustains his commitment to prevail in the Global War on Terror; increase ground combat capabilities; improve force readiness; develop the combat capabilities needed to meet future threats; and improve the quality of life for Service members and their families.

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Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates said, the President’s budget for FY 2009 provides the resources necessary to maintain an agile, highly trained, and lethal fighting force, increase Army and Marine Corps end strength, and sustain the United States’ technological advantage over current and potential enemies. Specifically, the Department’s request:

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*Maintains a highly trained fighting force of 2.2 million soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines;
*Recruits, trains and equips 65,000 additional active duty soldiers and 27,000 additional Marines over five years;
*Provides pay increases of 3.4 percent for military members, improves benefits for the all-volunteer force, and increases pay 2.9 percent for the civilian workforce;
*Provides world-class health care for 9.2 million eligible Service members, families, and retirees;
*Procures and maintains an arsenal of the world’s most advanced weapon systems;
*Improves warfighting capabilities and invests in science and technology to maintain U.S. advantage over the Nation’s enemies;
*Maintains 545,000 facilities at 5,300 sites in the U.S. and around the globe; and
*Maintains vital intelligence capabilities.

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Wake up to the reality that war is a business. That war drives certain markets. That war is something of value to industires like the defense industry. If we want Iran we get Iran. They have Iran currently surrounded, look at a map. Even if no invasion of Iran takes place they are still controlled geographically.Here's is Plan B, if the diplomacy in Iran doesn't work. Source

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Obama's Iran strategy contains a Plan B
By Doyle McManus, Los Angeles Times-Washington Post News Service
Published: February 24, 2009, 23:04

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Tehran: President Barack Obama is working against time to untangle 30 years of enmity and prevent Iran from building a nuclear bomb, but even his own advisers know the chance of success is slim.

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So they also have been working on Plan B: What do we do if Iran gets the bomb?

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Today, the Obama administration is debating its Iran policy behind closed doors. Last year, however, four of its key appointees wrote about the issue as private citizens, and their writings suggest they are planning for how to handle a nuclear Iran.

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Dennis Ross, the former Middle East peace negotiator, was recently appointed as adviser for Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran and Gulf states, as the administration seeks to strengthen ties.

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"Maybe, even if we engage the Iranians, we will find that however we do so and whatever we try, the engagement simply does not work," Ross wrote in a September report published by the Centre for a New American Security, a think tank that has supplied several appointees to the new administration.

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"We will need to hedge bets and set the stage for alternative policies either designed to prevent Iran from going nuclear or to blunt the impact if they do."

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If diplomacy fails, another Obama adviser wrote in the same report, the alternative "is a strategy of containment and punishment". That was the conclusion of Ashton B. Carter, Obama's reported choice as an undersecretary of Defence, who also warned: "The challenge of containing Iranian ambitions and hubris would be as large as containing its nuclear arsenal".

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Most (and maybe all) of Obama's advisers see the costs of attacking Iran as outweighing the benefits. If Iran gets closer to acquiring nuclear weapons, they have warned, military action will not look any more appetising than it did under George W. Bush.

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But that does not mean the United States would do nothing. Instead, Obama aides suggested in their writings, the US should pursue an Arabian Gulf version of the containment strategy used against the Soviet Union during the Cold War. What would that mean? For starters, a nuclear-capable Iran would face continued, serious pressure from the United States and its allies to dismantle whatever it had built. Obama might declare that a nuclear attack on Israel would be treated as an attack on the US homeland. And the US military would act to bolster Iraq, Saudi Arabia and other Arabian Gulf states against conventional-warfare threats from an emboldened Iranian regime.

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The plans to contain Iran are already in the works. Current geographical positioning ensures that we, the US, will be able to do if Iran gets nuclear weapons. This stratagy is possible with our current occupation of Iraq, Afgahn, and Saudi Arabi...also, Israel. The media plays a role in keeping our classes and demographics divided. Individual people are much more educated than you think and have the same concerns you do.The problem comes when "elitist", such as what you are making yourself out to be, think they're one step ahead of the folks in the south just because they are in, what they feel, is a progressive state. Yet your "liberal" "progressive" state of Cali voted AGAINST gay marriage, and places like Iowa have ok'd it. So which state is the less progressive in terms of gay marriage?Overall, people are at the same level, it's the media that tries to divded us based on silly characterizations that don't paint an accurate picture.-Oni

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Petition to Bailout Comedy The Laugh Factory is imploring Congress to immediately fund what owner Jamie Masada calls an "Economic Cheer-Up." If Congress fails to act quickly, the Laugh Factory comedians are planning to march to Washington and plea to President Obama.

Hey, you presented this particular persons story as the basis for your position, and for the correction of the timelines. I believe it's cool for me to analize what the person is claiming and give my opinion, as you have with my evidence, on the claim, right? You may have misinterpreted my position. I claimed that either NORAD or the Commissions timelines were wrong. I also stated that NORAD doesn't "fuck up" like that. And I have held to the position that NORAD's timelines were right because those were the timelines they gave.You brought evidence against my position in the form of this persons testimony, which I have since replied to. Someone got the timelines wrong, you say NORAD did, and I'll agree with you, if you can give me something more substantial than one persons personal account of what happened on that cluster fuck of a day. No I am not. "Take down" as in a computer that records all incoming phone calls and accurately records the times. If the issue is in the dialog then cool, but that persons testimony came with a lot of "I don't recall's" and "I doon't remember's", so how accurate is it?However, I actually have no idea how they do it...do you? Because to simply say that a persons testimony trumps the official NORAD timelines requires us to believe that NORAD has a really shiity way of recording the times. As in "someone writting it down on a notepad."The discrepancy seems to be in what was conveyed in the phone calls, OK, but from the report that you gave me, the person didn't seem very sure of what they were actually saying happened. Lets not lose it now, Dr. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and accept that this is how it happens. But, I will try to do some research on it and see what I can find as to how timelines are recorded at NORAD. If you are correct then I will bow to your better knowledge, and concede.Fair enough?- Oni

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Petition to Bailout Comedy The Laugh Factory is imploring Congress to immediately fund what owner Jamie Masada calls an "Economic Cheer-Up." If Congress fails to act quickly, the Laugh Factory comedians are planning to march to Washington and plea to President Obama.

Now you are claiming to know what they were thinking? Evidence, please... That's your opinion, and it's unsupported by evidence. Evidence, please.The breakdown of the budget that I gave you shows exactly what it's for. Weapons, fighter jets, increased troops, etc. This is media driven bullshit. This isn't the thread to get into this.In this thread Next world power one of the sub-topics is the political agenda of both the conservative and liberal party. Look at all of my posts and pick one that can be used to continue this debate. If not, then just re-post this reply to it and we'll get into it there. From that opinion alone I can tell you that you are not. What about black-gays?---------------------------------------------------------------I'll assume that you conceded on the Iran point. And that the Iraq invasion was for strategic, geographical positioning to control Iran. If you are conceding, then in the spirit of honest debate, please state it.- Oni

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Petition to Bailout Comedy The Laugh Factory is imploring Congress to immediately fund what owner Jamie Masada calls an "Economic Cheer-Up." If Congress fails to act quickly, the Laugh Factory comedians are planning to march to Washington and plea to President Obama.

No. I was in American during the run up to the invasion. Yes. It sounds like a complete lie used to fool the American public into thinking it would last 6 months. Which apparently, you fell for. A twist to my position, but not my actual position. They ignored threats, which is a fact reported extensively, and unanimously agreed upon. The troops are currently enlisted. However, this originated from your claim that: There IS money, there ARE troops (in Iraq who will be placed in Afgahn) and the will IS there (if Iran gets nuclear weapons) and our current geographical position in the Middle East was the strategy. No.This was you idiodic comment: When "red-state politics" is not based on that matra. That's your opinion based on your interpretation and willful acceptance of left-wing media driven propaganda. And I'm saying that you're wrong.First, who are "these people", exactly? - Anyone in the south/middle states? Thats' a bigoted assumtion, first of all. These "people" have as much sense as you do to filter out garbage. You believe that EVERYONE in the south is a stupid, pro-christian right, lunatic that believes every word that comes from FoxNews and Limbaugh, this assesment of yours is wrong. However... Yes. The liberal side of the media makes it seem this way. And people with no knowledge of these places accept that it's true. Both side play to their loyal supporters. You follow liberal media propaganda, and others follow conservative media propaganda. And the funny thing is that each side feels they are smarter than the other, when in actuality, both sides are being played against each other like fools.Are there idots in the south that follow Limbaugh and Fox, sure. But apperantly there are also idiots in the west coast that feel that ALL southerners are dumb rednecks who follow a set pattern.Guess what, there are idiots every where that buy into media lead propaganda. Yet you start the debate by saying dumb shit you heard on the news, then claim others can't think for themselves.Many are lead by right-wing propaganda, many (like you) are lead by left-wing propaganda, and the point I'm making is that NEITHER of you is thinking for yourselves.Again, this was your idiodic comment: How the fuck do you know what 100% of the middle of the country is thinking? You said "the entire middle of the country", as if you actually know that...You don't!All you did was repeat dumb shit you heard on the liberal news sources. You don't know any of that, much less accuse 100% of the people in the south/middle states of having one set opinion. It's stupid, it's ignorant, it's bigoted, and you're an asshole for feeling that way.Think for yourselfs. Go to the south/middle states. Go to the universities where I perform at, talk to the students, talk to the actual people, and don't be lead like a blind sheep by liberal, divisive propaganda, then claim to be better than others. You're acting in the very same way that you claim others are acting, but have somehow convinced yourself that you are right and they are wrong.- Oni

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Petition to Bailout Comedy The Laugh Factory is imploring Congress to immediately fund what owner Jamie Masada calls an "Economic Cheer-Up." If Congress fails to act quickly, the Laugh Factory comedians are planning to march to Washington and plea to President Obama.

By facilitating the US to gain access to both of their surrounding boarders? Wtf? There are still troops in Afgahn and it is increasing. In fact, Michamus, one of the posters on this site, is currently there.There are also troops in Iraq. And we are allied with the Suadi's. Iran is surrounded. They didn't want that, that is why they currently want to threaten with uranium enrichment. But the US, in the article I linked for you, has a Plan B to control and punish Iran if the get nuclear weapons.Those are the facts. Troops are in Iraq. In Afgahn. And we are allied with the Saudi's. Plus, we have Israel and a somewhat good relationship with Pakistan...for now. Iran is surrounded and they feel the threat of the US. If they get nuclear weapons they will. Or they could just send a fighter jet to get bombed, right? Like you proposed was good enough to invade Iraq. No, apperantly they're sending some idiot into a forum to talk shit about what they think they know.I'm not falling for it CIA!- OniEdited by onifre, : No reason given.

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Petition to Bailout Comedy The Laugh Factory is imploring Congress to immediately fund what owner Jamie Masada calls an "Economic Cheer-Up." If Congress fails to act quickly, the Laugh Factory comedians are planning to march to Washington and plea to President Obama.

I can tell. Made by a bigot, in true bigot fashion, that is, having no evidence to support it other than crap spewed from the liberal media. How do you know that? ...and talk to the people in the community. Judge it for yourself.At any rate, it's not 100% of the south/middle states so you were wrong. Except for the shit load of educated ones. You're a gay elitist.- Oni

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Petition to Bailout Comedy The Laugh Factory is imploring Congress to immediately fund what owner Jamie Masada calls an "Economic Cheer-Up." If Congress fails to act quickly, the Laugh Factory comedians are planning to march to Washington and plea to President Obama.

Are you cursed with short term memory loss?I provided you an entire article dedicated to addressing this issue.Here, I'll provide it for you again. Daddy's even gonna highlight the important parts for you so you don't have to struggle reading much. Source

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Obama's Iran strategy contains a Plan B
By Doyle McManus, Los Angeles Times-Washington Post News Service
Published: February 24, 2009, 23:04

​

Tehran: President Barack Obama is working against time to untangle 30 years of enmity and prevent Iran from building a nuclear bomb, but even his own advisers know the chance of success is slim.

​

So they also have been working on Plan B: What do we do if Iran gets the bomb?

​

Today, the Obama administration is debating its Iran policy behind closed doors. Last year, however, four of its key appointees wrote about the issue as private citizens, and their writings suggest they are planning for how to handle a nuclear Iran.

​

Dennis Ross, the former Middle East peace negotiator, was recently appointed as adviser for Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran and Gulf states, as the administration seeks to strengthen ties.

​

"Maybe, even if we engage the Iranians, we will find that however we do so and whatever we try, the engagement simply does not work," Ross wrote in a September report published by the Centre for a New American Security, a think tank that has supplied several appointees to the new administration.

​

"We will need to hedge bets and set the stage for alternative policies either designed to prevent Iran from going nuclear or to blunt the impact if they do."

​

If diplomacy fails, another Obama adviser wrote in the same report, the alternative "is a strategy of containment and punishment". That was the conclusion of Ashton B. Carter, Obama's reported choice as an undersecretary of Defence, who also warned: "The challenge of containing Iranian ambitions and hubris would be as large as containing its nuclear arsenal".

​

Most (and maybe all) of Obama's advisers see the costs of attacking Iran as outweighing the benefits. If Iran gets closer to acquiring nuclear weapons, they have warned, military action will not look any more appetising than it did under George W. Bush.

​

But that does not mean the United States would do nothing. Instead, Obama aides suggested in their writings, the US should pursue an Arabian Gulf version of the containment strategy used against the Soviet Union during the Cold War. What would that mean? For starters, a nuclear-capable Iran would face continued, serious pressure from the United States and its allies to dismantle whatever it had built. Obama might declare that a nuclear attack on Israel would be treated as an attack on the US homeland. And the US military would act to bolster Iraq, Saudi Arabia and other Arabian Gulf states against conventional-warfare threats from an emboldened Iranian regime.

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At that point Iran will have WMD's, you said that was enough to go into Iraq without 911. Now you're claiming that an armed Iran won't be enough to go into Iran, but you seemed to accept that argument for Iraq...?You're making no sense.- Oni

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Petition to Bailout Comedy The Laugh Factory is imploring Congress to immediately fund what owner Jamie Masada calls an "Economic Cheer-Up." If Congress fails to act quickly, the Laugh Factory comedians are planning to march to Washington and plea to President Obama.

Exactly the point. There is no oil, there is no reason to invade N. Korea. There was reason to invade Iraq, Afgahn, and eventually Iran...why? Control of the oil market.Also, the euphamism,"the Axis of Evil", is a bullshit term used to scare the US public. The only reason N. Korea was also included was to not make our current war a "Muslim" based war. Had the axis of evil been only Muslim states then the US would have looked as if the were staging an anti-muslim war. So someone else was needed to divert that opinion, thus N. Korea gets shoved into the mix.Also, N. Korea was a memeber of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, but they withdrew in 2003, claiming that the failure of the United States to fulfill its end of the Agreed Framework was the reason. Iran does not fit this bill. It's a completely different animal all together and requires a different approach. Again, I direct you to the article I provided and it's explanation as to how the process will go if Iran gets nuclear capabilities and fails to meet the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. These aren't my words, they are the words of our government.- Oni

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Petition to Bailout Comedy The Laugh Factory is imploring Congress to immediately fund what owner Jamie Masada calls an "Economic Cheer-Up." If Congress fails to act quickly, the Laugh Factory comedians are planning to march to Washington and plea to President Obama.

Hi again Hydro,The good Dr. provided those tapes and more in this message: Message 77I didn't go over them myself since there are a shit load of them. If you do listen to all of them and find something curious, if you don't mind, let me know since the Dr. is kicking my ass in this debate .I don't feel that the tapes will saying anything more than what Dr. A has stated they said, that's why I didn't really bother listening to them.- Oni

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Petition to Bailout Comedy The Laugh Factory is imploring Congress to immediately fund what owner Jamie Masada calls an "Economic Cheer-Up." If Congress fails to act quickly, the Laugh Factory comedians are planning to march to Washington and plea to President Obama.