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Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Separation of Church and State | |||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: OK, rat. Let's say that we put state-bankrolled prayer back into schools. This would mean that the government would be able to choose and regulate everything regarding the manner in which that prayer will be done. Does this sound like something the US government should be involved with? Nobody says that a kid can't pray privately to him or herself in school. But anyway, what is this "religion of Atheism" you mention? Where do I go to worship? What are it's doctrines and tenets? Who are it's supreme leaders that all Atheists are bound to follow? Lastly, you do know that the Declaration of Independence isn't the same thing as the Constitution, don't you? Can you show where in the Constitution the Founders mention religion or God?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
But anyway, what is this "religion of Atheism" you mention? Where do I go to worship? quote: I can become indoctrinated into the Church of Atheism in US public schools? Cool. Tell, me, though, coz I'm kind of confused...why do they still give kids time off at Christmas and Easter if they are all being indoctrinated into Atheism? Oh, and the Pledge of Allegience still has that "under God" thingie in it...I thought that Atheists didn't believe in God? Can you show me a textbook of the tenets of Atheism that public school children are taught?
quote: How can anybody stop me from praying in class as a student, as long as I disturb no one?
Lastly, you do know that the Declaration of Independence isn't the same thing as the Constitution, don't you? quote: Someone who wants to make a point about the separation of church and state should care to know the difference, I should think.
Can you show where in the Constitution the Founders mention religion or God? quote: Yes, the same guys. Show me.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Or do you mean when they took out forced prayer quote: Yes. Public schools (many of them) used to require everyone to pray and read and memorize parts of the Bible. The specific prayer that all students in one New York school district were required to recite in the 1950's was what brought on the Supreme Court decision that stopped state-sponsored prayer in school:
link Public schools in the state of New York are under the supervision of a state government agency, the State Board of Regents. In the late 1950's, they published a "Statement on Moral and Spiritual Training in the Schools." One component of the statement was a prayer to be recited by public school students:
"Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers and our Country." 3 In the statement, they expressed the belief "that this Statement will be subscribed to by all men and women of good will, and we call upon all of them to aid in giving life to our program." That is an unusual statement. One would expect that most of the 88% of adult Americans who identified themselves as Christians at that time would subscribe to the Board of Regent's statement. Most followers of other theistic religions might also agree, because the prayer is not really a Christian prayer. The prayer implies only the existence of a single, monotheistic God who controls events in the universe and to whom one can pray, and receive benefits. Such a minimal prayer would offend few theists. But one would expect significant opposition from others. For example: Atheists have no awareness of the existence of God;Agnostics are undecided about the existence of God; Buddhists generally have no belief in a personal God; Humanists base their beliefs and practices on secular considerations; Jews, because of centuries of Christian persecution, tend to oppose government involvement in religion; Some theists who object in principle to state-sponsored prayers in public schools because of the degree of compulsion which is inevitably present; and Many religious liberals rigorously defend the principle of separation of church and state, and would oppose school prayer on principle. The Board of Regents appears to have considered such individuals to not be "men and women of good will" -- a stance that many people would consider arrogant and narrow-minded. The Board of Education of Union Free School District No. 9 of New Hyde Park, NY, instructed their school principal to have the Regent's prayer recited by the students "aloud by each class in the presence of a teacher at the beginning of each school day." 3
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Let's say that we put state-bankrolled prayer back into schools.
This would mean that the government would be able to choose and regulate everything regarding the manner in which that prayer will be done. Does this sound like something the US government should be involved with?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Yes, they did. Did you know that the the parents bringing the suit were Jewish? Do you classify Jews as "Athiests" now? Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
You are equating a lack of any indocrination in any religion with indoctrination in Atheism.
This is an error of thinking on your part.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Would you support a Wiccan group coming into the schools to teach their principals just so long as they never mentioned The Goddess? How about a Hindu group? Satanist group? Animists? Buddhists?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: So the Satanists and the Wiccans could come into the schools and show all the kids what it is, right? The kids could have free choice to follow Satan or The Goddess, right?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
I'm sorry, you must have missed my posts to you, rat.
They can be found at:
Message #249,
Message #250 Message #251
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Exactly. That is exactly how it is supposed to work. YOU teach YOUR children whatever stripe of religion you want.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: You would be in favor of Satanists teaching about their religion in the public schools? I call bullshit on that.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Yes, they did. Did you know that the the parents bringing the suit were Jewish?Do you classify Jews as "Athiests" now? ---------------- You are equating a lack of any indocrination in any religion with indoctrination in Atheism. This is an error of thinking on your part. ---------------- Let's say that we put state-bankrolled prayer back into schools. This would mean that the government would be able to choose and regulate everything regarding the manner in which that prayer will be done. Does this sound like something the US government should be involved with?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Jimmy Carter, Rev. Al Sharpton, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., and Jesse Jackson don't want us to worship God, and instead would like us to worship the gods of ultra-tolerance on the graven altar of moral relativism? And, by the way, were you planning on crediting Hans Zeiger, the ultra-right wing Fascist Christian wacko who is a student at Hillsdale College in Michigan, for the quote you used?
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