Separation of Church and State

Hmm... I don't think the government should have anything to do with school period. That includes religious material or anything else for that matter. It seems to me that public schools encroach on our freedoms, waste money in bureaucracy, and provide a venue for state controlled indoctrination (be it religious or other).So let's just abolish public school altogether. Anyone else in favor of that?

I never said, "We don't need no education." Most are not able or willing. Only because we have such a massive welfare system and such crime infested inner city ghettos. We should abolish that while we're at it....I do realize our nation is at a point where none of this immediate change is possible as it would completely destabilize our society. But there is. Furthermore, IMO, school should not be a place devoid of God. But in public schools, God must be purged. The complete removal of God is a form of indoctrination in itself: an indoctrination of secularism. I agree partly. Our nation is so messed up that the changes it needs would cause immediate disaster.... so we'll continue down this road to eventual disaster.

I thought the government was supposed to be made up of the educated populous. "Of the people, by the people, for the people" At least in a republic or conservative democracy. But in a socialistic democracy we're ruled by the mob which is in turn ruled by those with enough power to appease and persuade the mob... but I digress.We as the people have a vested interest in an educated populous, but I think it is dangerous to think of the government as having interests of its own. Of course, you are right in saying it does. We've past that point long ago.This is one reason why schools should not be public. The government's and the people's interests are divided. Many people want their faith a part of their whole lifestyle, which includes school, but the government "wants" to support secular education. When a government's interests are no longer the people's (or the people's interests are shaped by the government to support the government's interests) the government's sole "reason" for increased involvement is to increase its power. I agree.

You're joking right? If I were a communist or a fascist or a totalitarian dictator or a liberal socialist humanist or a neo-con Christian or any ideology with a hunger for power, I would obviously be all for the public schools since I would need them to shape the minds of the future populous to my advantage.

I graduated from a public highschool in 2003. God was not expressly forbidden, no. But my teachers were afraid to say anything about God. No one really discussed matters of faith. To bring up God was not cool even though over half the school would have claimed to be Christian. If you brought up God in class discussion, everyone would cringe a little inside.When you have a lot of something (secular education) and none of something else (God), you have purged that something from the rest of it. That is just not done by and large. There definately is. I was not aware of how indoctrinated I was until I came to my private Christian university. I remember for the first couple of days of class I "cringed" inside everytime the teacher opened class with a prayer and devotional teaching. The teacher was doing what had previously been forbidden and controversial, and I was conditioned to react negatively to it. I was amazed to hear people everywhere talking casually about God. If I have a bucket full of both red and blue m&m's and I take out all the blue one's before I pass them out, am I not advocating the red one's over the blue one's?

I bet... sadly it was totally lost on this untravelled Texan.

It may have gotten us here, but "here" is only a transitional period to "there". When we get "there" we'll just do a little double-speak on the meanings of "equality" and "elitism". I don't think most do.Reminds me of a song we used to sing in public school: "Deck the halls with gasoline! Fa la la la la, la la la la! Light a match and watch it gleam! Fa la la la la! Watch the school burn down to ashes! Fa la la..."This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 12-14-2005 08:49 PM

What?We aren't talking about Christianity vs culture or other religions. If we were, you'd be somewhat correct.We're talking about children spending a very large percentage of their early formative years in an environment where God is banished.And like I said a post or 2 ago, in some cases if you fail to advocate one thing, you advocate the opposite. If I have a bucket of red and blue M&M's, and I remove the blue ones before I pass them out, am I not advocating the red over the blue?This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 12-14-2005 09:01 PM

Do you think a Christian can or should cordon off his walk with Christ from the rest of his life in the secular world? That is precisely the reason the church in America is apostate. "Christians" are only so from 10:00 to 12:00 Sunday mornings.Furthermore, the "church" is the body of believers. The church cannot function when it's limited to an hour of oratory and music once a week. A secularized religious ed class is not the same as a functioning body of believers ministering to one another. No we're not. Perfect, everyone gets barely enough information to be dangerous and receives no guidance. Since God must be looked upon from a position of doubt, and since all of mankind's notions of God are juxtaposed in a ridiculous manner, the students inevitably come away from the class with the general feeling that God doesn't exist. Thus, the attempt at neutrality fails because Truth is a dividing sword. If you don't accept it, you reject it.I agree, that a "sacred studies" course is a great idea, but in a secular context it will inevitably anti-God.This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 12-14-2005 09:49 PM

How can cringing when a body of Christians pray together be the right reaction? You think being ashamed of one's faith is good? Well, that is pretty much a cheap shot, but I'm not offended. LeTourneau is actually an excellent University especially for engineering and flight.

Me too. No, its a corporate thing, at least Christianity is. Except public school. Unless you were referring to the personal educating of one's self. Christianity grows as a BODY, not as a few loners out there on their own, and certainly not as a bunch of rich mavericks standing on stage.Few people have ever really seen a true church in operation. I completely agree! But what hope is there of these kids, mere infants in the faith, of having knowledge and faith enough to stand up to the challenge when they've been deprived of God for 90% of their lives???

No. But being a Christian is not a Christian alone. If you cease all corporate functions of the church, you have defeated it. EXACTLY. America is just another Babylon, and the apostate church is just another harlot. PUBLIC SCHOOL!!! Well, not to 1 hour per week, but as you've just proven above, public school limits the church. The closest thing to true church that I have found is my dorm floor. It's a good one.

They take up a tiny bit of the remaining 10% after sports, video games, work, homework, and social life.

One of my professors answered her cell phone in the middle of a lecture, I thought it was unprofessional too, until I realized it was her son who was sick. She explained to the class, "I'm a mommy first and a teacher second." I respect that. In the same way, I respect someone who puts God and the needs of others in prayer before class material.If being secularly professional means I must disobey God, be ashamed of what I believe, and inhibit the true corporate function of the church, then I guess I'm just going to have to be unprofessional.Besides, the profs are fulfilling their job requirements by taking prayer requests, and in that sense they are being professional. You're saying our prof's must be 2nd rate because they put God first? Well, you can't really know that unless you take classes from them can you? Unless you make this unwise broad generalization about Christians.This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 12-14-2005 10:49 PM

To sum it up...Religion should not be advocated in public schools. I think I'm in agreement with pretty much everyone on that.Schools should not be state sponsored. It gives the government too much power and does things inefficiently.Yes, Christians have failed for many reasons: a lack of good parents, a surplus of greedy apostate churches, and severe disobedience to Christ.I do realize that abolishing public schools right now would bring immediate disaster on us.The threat to Christianity posed by secular public schools comes through the default indoctrination of secularism and the inhibition of the church from functioning as a body.Christianity could be equally threatened by a school where students are indoctrinated with one particular doctrine (even if those doctrines are not heretical) because indoctrination is not the true function of the church as described in Acts and the gospels. A faith that comes through indoctrination is no faith at all (as I so painfully discovered when my indoctrinated faith was destroyed by accepting evolution as a plausible theory).The true church is not something that happens once or twice a week. Neither is it a tyrannical authority system set up for the purpose of indoctrination. The true church is made of followers of Jesus living and growing in their walk with him together.Ideally, teachers, being the authority figures, would ensure that the church fulfills its function: helping each other with personal needs, prayer, resolving disputes, and offering wisdom from life experience. Learning to live justly, mercifully, and humbly the way Jesus taught us would be considered the main goal of life and therefore take precedence though not eclipse other learning. Discussion, questioning, debating, and investigation of world history and religions should be encouraged as well as the sharing of learned wisdom with one another. God would give the spiritual gifts as he saw fit, and life would be as it was back in the "good 'ole days" when believers met at Solomon's Colonnade to hang out (hopefully minus the bloody persecution).I'm not so naive as to expect this to happen. Though certain aspects of my experience at LeTourneau University have come close to it.I'm sure this sounds terribly discusting to most of you. You probably believe knowledge is the ideal, the most important goal, as it will lead to the improvement of humanity and has expanded your own minds to bring you a sense of transcendence at times. It has certainly improved our wealth, comfort, and lifespan, but I do not believe humans today are on the whole any "better" than humans 5000 years ago. I believe learning to live rightly as Jesus did is the most important thing in life and should be placed above even the pursuit of knowledge and wealth.