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Author
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Topic: Separation of Church and State
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Phat
Member Posts: 18353 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Re: The United State Was Founded As A Heathen Nation That Disowned God
Seeing as how the love of moneyis the root of all evil, we may as well have some idolatrous god or goddess on the coins. At least that way, we would honestly acknowledge our pagan worship of materialism. Getting back to separation of church and state, however....
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. the "God" on the money is an unknown god, in my opinion.
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FreddyFlash
Inactive Member
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Message 182 of 305 (306153)
04-23-2006 4:08 PM
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Reply to: Message 180 by DrJones*
04-23-2006 2:38 PM
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Re: The United State Was Founded As A Heathen Nation That Disowned God
Dear Doctor: I would leave ambiguous the statute that prohibits a government official from trespassing on the jurisdiction of the Creator, just like the First U. S. Congress left the Bill of Rights. FVF This message has been edited by FreddyFlash, 04-23-2006 04:09 PM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 180 by DrJones*, posted 04-23-2006 2:38 PM | | DrJones* has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 183 by DrJones*, posted 04-23-2006 5:01 PM | | FreddyFlash has replied |
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DrJones*
Member Posts: 2290 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: 08-19-2004 Member Rating: 7.6
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Re: The United State Was Founded As A Heathen Nation That Disowned God
How would you define the jurisdiction of this creator without first defining her?
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! *not an actual doctor
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FreddyFlash
Inactive Member
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Message 184 of 305 (306168)
04-23-2006 5:58 PM
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Reply to: Message 183 by DrJones*
04-23-2006 5:01 PM
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Re: The United State Was Founded As A Heathen Nation That Disowned God
Dear Doctor: Because its the American thing to do. Don't you know the Amendments were calculated to amuse, or rather to decieve. That is what one of the framers wrote just days after the close of the first session of the First U. S. Congress. FVF
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 183 by DrJones*, posted 04-23-2006 5:01 PM | | DrJones* has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 185 by DrJones*, posted 04-23-2006 6:06 PM | | FreddyFlash has not replied |
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DrJones*
Member Posts: 2290 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: 08-19-2004 Member Rating: 7.6
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Re: The United State Was Founded As A Heathen Nation That Disowned God
That didn't answer my question at all. How do you define the "jurisdiction of the creator" without first defining "the creator"? This message has been edited by DrJones*, 04-23-2006 04:07 PM
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! *not an actual doctor
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FreddyFlash
Inactive Member
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Message 186 of 305 (306175)
04-23-2006 6:12 PM
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Dear Doctor: The same way the First Congress defined the term "an establishment of religion" without first defining the word "religion." FVF
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 187 by DrJones*, posted 04-23-2006 6:15 PM | | FreddyFlash has not replied |
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DrJones*
Member Posts: 2290 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: 08-19-2004 Member Rating: 7.6
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Fine then provide a definition of the "jurisdiction of the creator". Edited by DrJones*, : No reason given.
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! *not an actual doctor
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FreddyFlash
Inactive Member
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Message 188 of 305 (306189)
04-23-2006 7:33 PM
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The jurisdiction of the Creator is the duty which we owe to our Creator. Fred
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FreddyFlash
Inactive Member
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Message 189 of 305 (313990)
05-20-2006 7:54 PM
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Reply to: Message 15 by randman
12-04-2005 10:27 PM
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Re: From the other thread ... {Fully 100% American vs divided allegiance}
Dear Randman: RE: Framers Weak on Separation of Church and State In 1787, nine of the thirteen states had no establishments of religion by law. South Carolina's establishment was abolished before the Bill of Rights was ratified. Maryland, North Carolina and Georgia are often claimed to have legal establishment of religion in 1787, but this is not true. The provisons granted the government authority over religion were never ratified by the people of Maryland, North Carolina and Georgia, and never exercised.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 15 by randman, posted 12-04-2005 10:27 PM | | randman has not replied |
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FreddyFlash
Inactive Member
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Message 190 of 305 (313997)
05-20-2006 8:19 PM
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Reply to: Message 14 by RAZD
12-04-2005 7:50 PM
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Re: From the other thread ... {Fully 100% American vs divided allegiance}
Separation of Church and State as a Christian Principle James Madison considered anything less than the Perfect Separation of Church and State to be "giving to Caesar what belongs to God". This was clearly a reference to Matthew 22:21 which many Christians of the day, especially the Baptist - who were the base of Madison's political power as a Congressmen from Orange County, Virginia - believed was the requisition, from the lips of Savior himself, for a Separation of Church and State.
If some of the States have not embraced this just and this truly Xn principle in its proper latitude, all of them present examples by which the most enlightened States of the old world may be instructed; and there is one State at least, Virginia, where religious liberty is placed on its true foundation and is defined in its full latitude. The general principle is contained in her declaration of rights, prefixed to her Constitution: but it is unfolded and defined, in its precise extent, in the act of the Legislature, usually named the Religious Bill, which passed into a law in the year 1786. Here the separation between the authority of human laws, and the natural rights of Man excepted from the grant on which all political authority is founded, is traced as distinctly as words can admit, and the limits to this authority established with as much solemnity as the forms of legislation can express. The law has the further advantage of having been the result of a formal appeal to the sense of the Community and a deliberate sanction of a vast majority, comprizing every sect of Christians in the State.
This act is a true standard of Religious liberty: its principle the great barrier agst usurpations on the rights of conscience. As long as it is respected & no longer, these will be safe.
Every provision for them short of this principle, will be found to leave crevices at least thro' which bigotry may introduce persecution; a monster, that feeding & thriving on its own venom, gradually swells to a size and strength overwhelming all laws divine & human. Ye States of America, which retain in your Constitutions or Codes, any aberration from the sacred principle of religious liberty, by giving to Caesar what belongs to God, or joining together what God has put asunder, hasten to revise & purify your systems, and make the example of your Country as pure & compleat, in what relates to the freedom of the mind and its allegiance to its maker, as in what belongs to the legitimate objects of political & civil institutions. --James Madison in Detached Memoranda (Circa 1820)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 14 by RAZD, posted 12-04-2005 7:50 PM | | RAZD has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 191 by RAZD, posted 05-20-2006 9:02 PM | | FreddyFlash has replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Source? Comment? Anything?
Please cite your sources when you copy and paste from another website. This is not only more honest but more ethical. Otherwise this is plagarism. Please comment in your own words on any articles that you quote -- what we debate is your opinion not some book or other website.
Now I assume you - personally - are arguing that {Separation of Church and State is a Christian Principle} rather than the converse. If true, then this means that anyone that argues for any wedding of church and state is un-christian or even anti-christian, because it would violate this "Christian Principle" -- and christians should be the staunchest defenders of this seperation. If false, then it is just another false assertion by those wanting to take credit for every aspect of american government as some christian principle or other ... I'm still waiting for someone to assert that democracy is a "Christian Principle" -- and I won't be surprised if I see it.  There is also the matter of logically false construction: All{A} is {B} therefor All{B} is {A} is logically false because {B} could include {C} as well as All{A} Thus we have christians and deists and others claiming that separation of church and state is a vital principle of american government ... It is a principle that transcends just christian or just deist or just american. Enjoy.
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FreddyFlash
Inactive Member
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Message 192 of 305 (314012)
05-20-2006 9:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 191 by RAZD
05-20-2006 9:02 PM
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Re: Source? Comment? Anything?
Thomas Jefferson, according to the draft of his letter to the Danbury Baptists, believed the Separation of Church and State was an eternal law. His use of the term "soverign reference" in his famous letter suggests a divine origin of the Separation of Church and State. I don't know if Jefferson ever explained how he arrived at the conclusion. He may have been a Baptist, or just absorbed during all those Baptist meetings he attended as a youth or perhaps he discovered it by the use of reason.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 191 by RAZD, posted 05-20-2006 9:02 PM | | RAZD has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 194 by RAZD, posted 05-20-2006 9:46 PM | | FreddyFlash has not replied |
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FreddyFlash
Inactive Member
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Message 193 of 305 (314014)
05-20-2006 9:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 191 by RAZD
05-20-2006 9:02 PM
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Re: Source? Comment? Anything?
Anyone who advocates any sort of civil authority over religion is un-christian because he rejects the absolute and exclusive authority of Christ over matters of religion and violates what James Madison called a pure, just and truly Christian principle. "Genuine" Christians are still the staunchest defenders of the separation of church and state, as was the case during the Founding Era and the Early Days of the Republic.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 191 by RAZD, posted 05-20-2006 9:02 PM | | RAZD has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 195 by RAZD, posted 05-20-2006 9:49 PM | | FreddyFlash has not replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Re: Source? Comment? Anything?
He may have been a Baptist, or just absorbed during all those Baptist meetings he attended as a youth or perhaps he discovered it by the use of reason. Most likely the latter. See List of deists - WikipediaThomas Jefferson Ever heard of The Jefferson Bible? ALL supernatural elements removed, treats jesus as a historical normal enlightened human being. Welcome to the steep learning curve of reality.
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Re: Source? Comment? Anything?
Anyone who advocates any sort of spiritual authority over government is un-american because he rejects the absolute and exclusive authority of the people over matters of government and violates what Founding Fathers called a more perfect union. Enjoy.
Join the effort to unravel {AIDSHIV} with Team EvC! (click)
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RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
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