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Author Topic:   Does Darwinism Equal "No God"?
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 155 of 298 (270839)
12-19-2005 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by randman
12-19-2005 3:25 PM


Re: HISTORICALLY YES, Darwinism = No God
The more relevant question is that considering the motivations and logic of prominent evos that argued that evolution disproves a Creator or Designer, should we accept their evidentiary claims and analysis?
We should consider their evidentiary claims and analysis, when it comes to science we should ignore their opinions.
Likewise, when playing chess I consider the analysis of Bobby Fischer as something to be seriously bourne in mind. However, his opinions are something I largely ignore.

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 Message 141 by randman, posted 12-19-2005 3:25 PM randman has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 157 of 298 (270841)
12-19-2005 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by randman
12-19-2005 3:50 PM


Re: from zero to Haeckel in four posts
I'm fairly sure that science largely disregarded Haeckel's claims, it was education that relied on them. That is all we managed to establish in the extensive amount of debate over this. Feel free to revisit the thread(s) if you have any further data.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by randman, posted 12-19-2005 3:50 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by randman, posted 12-19-2005 5:31 PM Modulous has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 203 of 298 (271046)
12-20-2005 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by randman
12-19-2005 5:31 PM


Re: from zero to Haeckel in four posts
I suggest you look at the Great Debate thread I had with nuggins where Richardson specifies as late as 1997, that scientists did rely on Haeckel's data for the claim of a phylotypic stage. It's OT here, but that point is well-established.
Richardson's paper contains the non-scientific statement that Haeckel had significant influence on some things. He listed a press book, an education book and a science paper as evidence. The only thing that these things have in common as far as I can see is that they all put forward evidence of a conserved stage of embryo development. Coming to a conclusion (based on evidence) which bares similarity to Haeckel's is a far cry from relying on Haeckel's claims.
You are right, this is off topic, which begs the question, why did you bring it up?
On topic, you seem to have a thing for appealing to authority and saying that said authorities opinions are reflective of the actual science work.
Interestingly, you brought Behe up, claiming him to be a 'fact based' scientist.
Behe writes:
Well, the theory of evolution is widely used in science. It is, in many aspects, well substantiated. It's used by working scientists and any well-educated student should understand it.

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 Message 164 by randman, posted 12-19-2005 5:31 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by randman, posted 12-23-2005 12:07 AM Modulous has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 251 of 298 (271942)
12-23-2005 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by randman
12-23-2005 12:07 AM


appeal to authority
Richardson is an expert in this field and refers to commonly accepted knowledge within that field and so does not substantiate that point as much as could be done.
You claim he was wrong without any evidence at all.
No, I don't claim he was wrong. I am claiming that he did not say what you said he said. I said he claimed that Haeckel had significant influence. You said he claimed that scientists rely on Haeckel. 'Significant influence' is a very general non-specific term. Was Haeckel's fraudulent work relied on by scientists? Maybe, but I'm yet to see it.
I don't appeal to authority alone. On something like this, I was forced to appeal to Richardson because guys like you are so incredibly ignorant of this area, even though you have a very strong and dogmatic opinion, that I am forced to show you how even someone I disagree with, agrees with me on this. This is a basic fact within the debate. You guys are just trying to squirm your way out of admitting the obvious.
The point is, you refer to the opinion of authority, not just their findings. For example, Wilson, Watson and Richardson.
Heck, even Richardson admitted Haeckel was believed, relied upon, and that his depictions were fraudulent.
You claim Richardson said Haeckel was relied upon, and that scientists relied on Haeckel's fraudulent work for 125 years. This doesn't seem to be Richardson's opinion, but your interpretation of his opinion.
There is no debating this, except with people like you that would swear the sky was orange if you thought it would help protect your "faith" (ToE).
The on-topic part was your reliance on appealing to the opinions of a small selection of scientists and assuming that their opinion is right on the subject and their opinion is representative.
Not only was I not defending the ToE, I wasn't even discussing it. Your the one that seems to think the actions of a few unscruplous indidviduals has some kind of effect on an explantory framework./
This message has been edited by Modulous, Fri, 23-December-2005 12:28 PM

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