How beautiful is life?

Yes...until the next 9-11 or other tragedy brings our faith out of the woodwork. Rational minds never seem to have any solutions for human conflict, although religion sometimes fans the flames I will admit.As for comfort in the midst of tragedy, some of us need more than the belief that we are the winners of a huge cosmic lottery and have no real significance in the same universe that we claim to be gaining understanding over.

Because our significance is not any sort of blue ribbon for the life that we live. Our righteousness...our works...no matter if you were Mother Theresa...would not mean that you could pat yourself on the back when you died and sang Sinatras "My Way" on the way out.Why is it so hard for you to see the One who is the standard above humanity? Alas...lets drop that appeal! Because according to atheism, everything is just dust soon anyway. You equate dancing the good dance in the here and now as infinitely more important than preparing for an eternal future. I would say that both are equally important. Just know that your dance is not only a temkporary thing. What did Crowe say in Gladiator? "What we do in life echoes in eternity?"This message has been edited by Phatboy, 05-15-2005 01:54 PM

I dunno, Jar...maybe you are the patron saint for atheists! I suppose that if one were to hear a message such as yours and having been so inspired to continue the good works for the simple sake of an inner good feeling and the knowledge of a life well lived and a job well done it all would be worthwhile. I'll let Faith or someone else argue with you about salvation as a free gift not obtainable by works. Jesus was addressing Jews when He used your Matthew 25 parable. Jews already knew better. Perhaps just as Paul was sent to the Gentiles, your message is mean't for the atheists and not for us Pharisee religious types!

Apart from Christ living through us, nothing!As for your Inquisitor Torquemada. Llorente, I would say that he had demons as vile as any that Himmler or Stalin ever had. Unlike Judaism, one does not become a Christian simply through a few rituals and a name badge. One becomes a Christian through
1) Acceptance of Jesus as savior, coupled with acknowledgement of the futileness of ones own justification
2) Impartation of the Holy Spirit(which occurs if one is sincere, and in Gods timing)
3) a daily relationship with God and continual acknowledgement and realisation of His grace and influence within. We never have any significance, but He does, living in us.

I never mean't to suggest this! Christians are the same fallible humans as are atheists.

I have been reading a book that you might like. Its called A Refutation of Moral Relativism by Peter Kreeft. The book is the result of a recorded series of conversations by Isa Ben Adam, a 41 year old Paleestinian Arab who is a Professor of Philosophy at the American University in Beirut, Lebanon. He is interviewed by Liberty (Libby) Rawls, a journalist who has been called a "classy sassy Black feminist". She has been a wife, a psychological social worker, a surfing instructor, an actress, an alcoholic, and a private investigator besides being a journalist. The topic is a question: Are there moral absolutes? Great book!

Thanks...yeah sorry if I sound so desperate! I just wanted to talk to you guys, but I'll stop bugging you about it. Here is a bold quote from ISA about empiricism:
"Empiricism is self-contradictory. It says all our knowledge is by sense perception but Empiricism itself can't be known by sense perception."As a Christian, I am not afraid to hash it out with intellectual atheists, doubters, and eclectics. I much prefer talking on this board than on a religious forum...How beautiful is life? It is ugly and harsh at times...it hurts and it is unfair. This is true for all of us. There may be a reason for all of this suffering, and some say that there is not a reason. THAT hurts. Here in Denver, a young man not much older than you was senselessly killed for no reason other than that he broke up a fight.
Video He was so young and had so much potential! I feel for his parents!

Its all about trust. who we trust. what we trust. why we trust or distrust. If I found out that all of the ministers whom I respect were fake, it would shake my trust in my beliefs. How much is uncertain. You probably lost faith in the reality of christianity in part by losing trust in people you knew who were part of it.
You also consequently trusted people such as yourself now who were agnostic/atheist and yet who showed you love, acceptance, and trust.Perhaps even as a naturalist/agnostic, you are on the path that you were mean't for. God only knows.

CSP what is your avatar all about? Is that song lyrics??

I wanna hear the lyrics to "for mexico".Also you said you would call last weekend... wassup?I have Wednesday off...call then.