Islam does not hate christianity

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I am starting to find this extremely offensive that you keep saying this all the while having a discussion with someone who by existance alone proves you wrong. I don't care if my family alone was the only people living there at the time. WE ARE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE! WE EXIST!

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I've acknowledged that, and sorry if I have failed to acknowledge it enough. Fact remains, if you will look into it fairly, that the majority of the people there are not Palestinians by heritage. You dismiss Walid Shoebat but what's so unconvincing about his claims? He said he learned that he had been taught lies. There must certainly be many others who continue to believe such lies.

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This is starting to become a tirade! The more your just repeat this the more you are just making yourself look foolish Faith. That is not meant with offense. Seriously now, why do you keep repeating this bold generalization that is NOT TRUE?

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I'm sorry you are offended but I'm not repeating anything any more than you are, and except for failing to acknowledge that there are some indigenous people in the land what I'm saying about the majority is the truth.But I can stop now. I think I've done this thread. I hope you will look into this with an open mind.

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The Palestinians are suffering but that's not Israel's fault.

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Could have fooled me and just about the rest of the real world.

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Their suffering would stop instantaneously if they cracked down on terrorism among them.

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The bullets that kill Palestinian children come from Israeli guns. The bulldozers that tear down houses and olive trees are driven by Israeli soldiers. The matches that burned my families crops were thrown by Israeli soldiers. Tell me how these actions are "keeping Israel safe?"

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Uh huh, and the houses are arsenals or covers for terrorist tunnels. That's always left out as they are presented as just houses. They aren't. And it is they who put their own people in harm's way by putting arsenals in civilian neighborhoods in the first place. However, Israel is very careful about civilians. All the Israeli military actions are against terrorists and that helps Israel if the bad guys are eliminated, obviously.

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There is nothing imperialistic about Israel. They simply
want to run their own country in peace, and they have in fact gone farther than many think is in their own best interests to accommodate to peace efforts, efforts to establish a Palestinian state for instance. Always it is the Palestinians who refuse peace.

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Imagine that, they refuse to negotiate while the barrel of a tank is pointed at the foundations of their homes. Seems pretty unreasonable to me to expect peace efforts to be initiated by the oppressors. Darn them unreasonable Palestinians!

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Yes they are unreasonable. That's all political propaganda you are believing. They are the aggressors, Israel is defending itself. They won't deal with their terrorists so Israel deals with them. I know that goes against political correctness but it is the truth.

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One thing at a time please. The great majority of the "Palestinians" do not have the longstanding residence in the land they claim. That's #1.

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Which is still only claim which even if it was true does not justify the incursion, slaughter, oppression, denial of human rights, torture, etc of ANY native people.

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Which is not the case. There is no slaughter. THe military actions are purely self defense, perfectly legal and reasonable actions to keep their people safe from suicide bombers and even then they get through.

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You have failed to show how the quantity of original people being oppressed justifies the oppression. The fact remains that there IS such a thing as a native Palestinian, they are not scant in number even in light of a migration. This necessarily defeats your original point that there is no such thing as a "Palestinian People."

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You haven't proved it so you've defeated nothing. I can find more evidence if necessary. All you have is your own personal claim.

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#2 The claim of "atrocities" denies the terrorist activity in the Palestinian areas, tunnels under dwellings where weapons are smuggled in and stored for instance.

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No one said that the Palestinian terrorists dont ALSO commit atrocities. There is no buck to pass, both cultures are responsible.

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This is not so. That is a false moral equivalence. The Palestinians are committing murder, the Israelis are defending themselves. The whole romance of freedom fighters is a lie.

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These tunnels are known to be there by the Israelis who go out and bulldoze them closed.

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And hundreds of homes of innocent Palestinian families in the way; taking no regard for people who might actually still be inside while the bulldozing happens. Killing old people and children who cannot escape.

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That's a lie too. They are very careful of the civilians. And blame the Palestinians for the occasional accident for cleverly putting their arsenals in civilian neighborhoods which no decent honorable society has ever done.

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This attempt to keep their people from being murdered is called "atrocities" as part of the usual anti-Israel propaganda campaign. All the attacks on Palestinian areas are against terrorists and are scrupulously well aimed at the terrorists in order to avoid harming civilians.

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Thats funny because my family is not terrorist and yet we have been subjected to violent actions by Israeli occupation forces. You must not have read the whole of that thread. Explain to me how burning our crops and bulldozing our olive trees helped make Israel safer?

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I don't know the reasons for every action, but you are judging from effects and not bothering to learn causes. That's unfair.

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If the terrorism were to stop, all the Israeli defensive actions would stop.

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Unlikely and this has been shown by action. Israeli forces kill and oppress innocent Palestinians with no justification all the time.

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Only according to the propaganda. You refuse to hear the other side of the story.

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The Palestinians have had all kinds of opportunities to improve their situation. The Israelis would be very helpful to them, but they refuse, they continue their murders.

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What murder did my family commit to justify the assault upon them?

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See above. How can I be expected to justify the individual case? You defend the general Palestinian propaganda, that's all I know.

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They don't want a state, they don't want anything but Israel gone gone gone. They will never accept peace with Israel.

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Just like most freedom loving people of the world, they won't accept peace delivered to them at the end of a barrel of a gun.

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BS. Pure BS. They've made agreements in times of peace and broken the peace themselves.

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My stomach hurts when I have to talk about this but it needs to be said. You have a very misinformed view of what actually happens over there.

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I'm sorry but it is you who are misinformed and unwilling to hear the other side of the story.

Great. I'm glad to see you bringing out some claims to fact instead of arguing from emotion as you have been doing. I'll get back to it later.

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All the Israeli military actions are against terrorists and that helps Israel if the bad guys are eliminated, obviously.

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Oh, really? Like that 12-year-old girl the Israelis machinegunned, just to watch her die? I'm supposed to believe she was the greatest criminal mastermind of the 21st century?

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If you follow up on stuff like this you ALWAYS find out it's a lie. I remember this one but I don't remember the details so I will have to track it down again, as obviously nobody here cares to dig up the facts. Anything to put Israel in the wrong.

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Or the American protestor they ran over with a bulldozer? I'm supposed to believe she was somehow harboring a terrorist arsenal? Where? In her handbag?

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She was PROTECTING a terrorist arsenal that the bulldozers were sent to deal with although she may have been stupid enough not to realize it as the Palestinians probably deceived her. Or maybe she knew but was anti-Israel enough to want to cover for the terrorists. That's been happening a lot in this bizarre world we are living in. And it was an ACCIDENT for pete's sake. The driver couldn't see the girl. The idea that any Israeli would risk the kind of foul propaganda you guys believe is stupid in the first place. They know it's going to go against them even if they're squeaky clean, but you can bet they knock themselves out to BE squeaky clean just because of all the slanders and set-ups. People who believe this stuff need to WAKE UP!

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It's really cool how you've circularly exonerated Israel; I'm amazed in the faith you must place in its leaders to simply assume that anyone who dies from an Israeli bullet was secretly a terrorist. How is it, though, that you decided which side to place your unwavering, unquestioning faith in? Did you flip a coin, or what?

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I don't trust the media, and I've read up on the tactics of the Palestinians. I don't claim Israel is perfect, nobody is, but I know how the propaganda machine works. And now you've misrepresented me, par for the course in such discussions. Find where I said the only people KILLED have been terrorists.

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Me, I think both sides are assholes, or have assholes among them, so don't you dare paint me as some kind of anti-semite Palestinian sympathizer

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Well, you've bought the Palestinian propaganda so let's say you're naive and don't look into things very carefully.

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Hi Jazzns and others
A source cited by Faith (no pun intended) is "From Time Immemorial" by Joan Peters. The link below comments on its credibility

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http://www.serendipity.li/zionism/joan_peters.htm

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Actually, I had checked up on Joan Peters' book myself earlier this evening since it had been a while since I'd read it, and found that it is subject to very valid criticism. But it's not "rubbish." I think this link has the most balanced view of it:

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I wonder what Faith makes of the way Israel treat(ed) Christians in Palestine.

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A double standard anyone?

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Oh man, too much has happened here since last night for me to catch up quickly. I'll have to catch up later too because I don't have much time now either.I'm aware that Christians are not welcome in Israel. After all, we want to convert them. But I don't expect other countries to follow the American pattern. I allow that Israel has a right to be a Jewish state. Often Palestinian Christians are Christian more by habit than practice and politically anti-Israel -- meaning sympathize with the terrorists -- so this isn't as obvious an indictment of Israel as it sounds. I also think a Muslim state has the right to have their own laws too, but in the case of Saudi Arabia and Muslim countries in Indonesia they outright persecute and murder the Christians and other religious groups who were there before them (and would do the same to the Jews if there were any Jews left there) and basic human rights are an international concern.But also, I simply do not trust the reports that come out of Arab, Muslim or even European sources any more. I don't trust Amnesty International, I don't trust the BBC. I think their bias is obvious.Edited to add "sympathize with the terrorists"This message has been edited by Faith, 02-25-2005 11:46 AM

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But also, I simply do not trust the reports that come out of Arab, Muslim or even European sources any more. I don't trust Amnesty International, I don't trust the BBC. I think their bias is obvious.

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I know you Israel partisans see enemies at all sides, but I've never understood why you expect the BBC or anybody else to care enough about Israel to have a bias in the first place. I understand why Christians like you have a bee in your bonnet over Israel; why should we believe anybody else gives enough of a damn to oppose you?

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Wrong questions. After seeing the slanted reporting we judge them biased. Their motives are another topic.

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Often Palestinian Christians are Christian more by habit than practice.

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Add to that list I wrote before, questioning my integrity as a Christian.

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Did you see your name in that sentence, or all Palestinian Christians in that sentence? Let me add that it isn't just Palestinian Christians but American Christians and Christians all over the world for that matter who are often Christian only in name or by culture or habit than by practice. Happens all the time.

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even confuses Mary the mother of Jesus with Miriam the sister of Moses.

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Good God man, what is the Hebrew equivalent of the name Mary?

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You should treble check everything you say as most of it is inaccurate.

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Brian.

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Oh man the ignorance here is so thick I spend most of my time dealing with that instead of getting to the topic.When I say they confuse it I MEAN they confuse the two, I AM NOT ignorant of the equivalence of the two names. If you don't want to look it up to prove your idiotic point I will try to later to show that you are making up stuff, but there's so much of this kind of nonsense here I may not get around to it.

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The more of your posts I read the more ignorance of other faiths I find.
even confuses Mary the mother of Jesus with Miriam the sister of Moses.

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Good God man, what is the Hebrew equivalent of the name Mary?

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You should treble check everything you say as most of it is inaccurate.

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Unfortunately that applies to you more than it does to me.Everybody here should read this whole page by Will Durant, no fundie for sure, where among other things he says that Mohammed made the very confusion I mentioned.

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Summoning the mighty admins... topic veering off course... this is not the 'Islam does/does not hate Israel' thread...

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Faith, I assume you, like Buz and other apocalyptic-minded Christians, is obsessed with Israel and itching to pick a fight with the world so Jesus will return and lift you guys to Heaven and send the rest of us Muslims atheists & so to Hell, so it's natural that this topic would turn from a discussion of the relationship between Islam & Christianity into Israel v Palestine. But can't you at least acknowledge the circumstances of Jazzns? I mean, Jazzns is a living example that this unhealthy obsession with Israel is damaging even to your fellow Christians (Although I doubt you would consider him as one of you, given that comment about Palestinian Christians "on the side of terrorists").

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I have to get back to Jazzns eventually but your assumptions take less thought and time.As I understand it Buzsaw is Jewish, not Christian. There's one assumption you can send to the trash bin.I have not said one thing that would cause anyone to class me with "apocalyptic minded Christians" either. That's your own categorical thinking misguiding you there.The reason this thread got off course is that I mentioned among other things that the Palestine-Israel dispute is at root caused by the hatred of Islam for Jews (Islam the written religion, not all Muslims), and to that extent it was on topic. But that offended Jazzns and that got us off on that side topic.I defend Israel NOT for religious reasons but simply because I believe they are being set up by deceivers, and are the ones getting the raw deal in world opinion.Please read carefully: I do believe that Israel's being back on the land as a nation has to be in God's plan, since He kept them scattered throughout the nations according to clear Biblical prophecy for nearly 2000 years and if He intended it they would NEVER be back on the Land. So it certainly has to be in His will, and it is very likely fulfilled prophecy that there is now a state of Israel. And Jesus is to come back to Israel eventually, which makes it all a very likely lead-up to the End.But that's as far as I go with Biblical views of the situation. If I thought Israel were in the wrong I wouldn't defend them even though I believe what I just said, as clearly they are not in the will of God from a Christian point of view -- God is simply having mercy on them.But I believe that most of the popular end-times stuff is bad theology, and any idea that anybody can DO anything to bring Jesus back is definitely bad theology.I have no obsession with Israel. It is the worldwide support of Islam that concerns me, which is apparently based on ignorance and false moral equivalence. There are many nice innocent Muslims who follow a milder form of Islam, but Islam itself in its texts and its history is the greatest danger to the world since Communism -- in fact there is affinity between Islam and today's Left, at least the Left is very supportive of Islam, a very odd thing but there it is, though many Muslim leaders also supported Hitler. All that is quite interesting to try to sort out. Curiouser and Curiouser.

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Lets look at that again shall we:
Often Palestinian Christians are Christian more by habit than practice
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Looks to me like you are singling out one particular group of people and making a baseless generalization.

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You had specifically identified "Palestinian Christians" and I was following your lead. Please retrace chain of posts.

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By the way, ready to retract you claim that there is no such thing as a Palestinian People? You seem to be ignoring my requests for clarification on this.

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I'm not ignoring you, just got caught up in the shorter posts on the last page here. I expected you to respond to that issue but haven't gone back to read it all yet. I know, I'm taking time out to answer all this so why couldn't I do that first? I'm not all that well organized I guess, and also I don't know yet what my position is on the Palestinian People thing because although Peters' research can't be taken as such solid evidence as I was assuming, there IS other evidence.I admit that I was defending Joan Peters' book without considering valid criticisms of it, but I have been familiar with all the wild unbalanced total trashing of that book and have tended to dismiss all criticisms for that reason, which is how I got into the position of not considering more balanced criticism. It is not "rubbish" even if apparently she didn't support her contention in as scholarly a way as appears on the surface. The research she did was prodigious, and the fact that she started out biased for the Palestinian cause against Israel, and changed her views in the process of researching the book, also influenced me. Nevertheless I admit that the book is flawed and can't be used to prove what I was originally contending about population changes. But there is also no clear unequivocal evidence AGAINST her position either as it is hard to interpret the statistics and as Martin Kramer said she was very likely right in her guesses.So, I'm not going to base anything on Joan Peters any more, and I grant that there is some basis for your view that at least the current "Palestinians" may be mostly those who were already on the land even if they didn't have an identity as a Palestinian People.Walid Shoebat's saying that he went from a Jordanian identity to a Palestinian identity because of political pressures has to carry some weight. And there is a lot of stuff out there on various PLO deceptions in general that I may get around to digging up if I live so long.Your point that nobody had a national identity in the Middle East is somewhat reasonable too, but not across the board. Egypt has had a national identity for millennia for instance. There were at least tribal boundaries and they merged into the modern states, but in Palestine there was not even a tribal identity until recently as I understand it. There was more than one tribe living there anyway according to information I already posted to you, including Jews, and they were scattered in the area rather than forming any clear tribal unity.This could only be proved one way or the other by written texts from prior to the founding of Israel and even from the period of the early Jewish settling there too and if you have produced that kind of evidence, I'm sorry but I simply haven't seen it yet. Not statistics, but written texts that refer to a unified Arab or Muslim group in the area. So far the indications are that there were scattered groups of different tribes who did not identify with each other, and also Jews with roots there for centuries.

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I defend Israel NOT for religious reasons but simply because I believe they are being set up by deceivers, and are the ones getting the raw deal in world opinion.

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They are the ones getting the bad press because they are doing bad things.

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So you've said.

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You need to at least acknowledge that you have read prior posts so people can tell the difference between to being staunch in your position and being ignorant about the previous evidence that was presented.

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OK, if I am aware of the situation I will.

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Israel has directly been shown to have committed gross human rights violations against Palestinian civillians and children. It is not just bad press.

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So you say and I don't buy it. It usually turns out to be victim politics being played against Israel's reasonable defensive operations, though I wouldn't claim they've never done ANYTHING out of bounds, just not the heinous crimes they are constantly accused of.

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I have no obsession with Israel.

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Yet you are defending their blameless honor so ferociously. Why is that?

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As I said, I'm convinced of it and convinced of the duplicity on the other side. And again, though it may appear that I consider them "blameless" that's not my point. Nobody's blameless. I just see the deck as stacked against them overall. The accusations against them turn out to be exaggerations for effect or outright fabrications. This seems to be ideology-driven -- Islam's ultimate aim to subject the entire world to Allah, plus "Israel must be in the wrong because Israel has success and strength."

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It is the worldwide support of Islam that concerns me, which is apparently based on ignorance and false moral equivalence.

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Worldwide support? Like how France and Germany are passing laws that discriminate against Moslems? Like how welcome and loved they are here in the US?

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Finally Europe is waking up to the growing threat, that's all, and it's pretty little and maybe too late. Muslims want concessions that are alien to European culture. We have always required newcomers to assimilate to our societies in the West but now there is this demand that we submit to the demands of the newcomers, tail wagging dog, cart before horse. America was always known as a Melting Pot. Now it's becoming a pot of indigestible clashing ingredients."Discriminate?" No, that is part of the false ideology that is creating the problem. Islamic fundamentalism of the worst kind, created from the Wahhabi sect out of Saudi Arabia, which is what inspired Osama Bin Laden and his team of 9/11 hijackers, is being preached in 80% of American mosques. This fundamentalism is implacably hostile to America and the West. We are being asked to accommodate to teachings that are inimical to our fundamental institutions and our well-being, even our very existence, as a culture and a nation. Contrary to what you say about opposition to Islam, there is very little of that, but a strong movement of support for just these hostile attitudes as if they were covered under our First Amendment, in essence claiming our Constitution calls for the death of our Constitution. Canada is already being asked to accommodate to Muslim Sharia Law -- just in Muslim communities so far-- but Sharia Law couldn't be more alien to Western Law. It does not belong in our societies at all.

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There are many nice innocent Muslims who follow a milder form of Islam, but Islam itself in its texts and its history is the greatest danger to the world since Communism

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You are defining Islam based on the actions and beliefs of the extremists.

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I am defining Islam based on the Koran and the Hadiths and the historical interpretation of those texts which has produced centuries of bloody subjugation of the Infidel wherever Islam has had the upper hand. And I have been looking for the quote from our old friend the Ayatollah Khomeini of Iran who says right out that the Koran calls for war against the infidel and it's only cowardice and faithlessness to Islam that interferes. He quotes the directives. Sure, call him an extremist, but he's got the texts on his side, and he is not the only one. All the "extremist" leaders are simply being true to what is written. It is the moderates and the mild ones who are NOT true to what is written. They have more common sense than what is written perhaps, but the point is that these "extremists" are simply true followers of Mohammed. They are true Islam.

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If I used your reasoning I could define "true Christians" as those that don't allow women to cut their hair or wear pants, play with poisionous snakes, etc. Then everyone else would just be the "milder form of Christianity."

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The comparison is false. True Christianity is obedience to the Bible and those strict sects who interpret the Bible as you are describing have no inclination to persecute or harm anyone anyway, even if they are bad Bible exegetes. True Muslims are likewise true to their texts but their texts advocate subjugation of the infidel and jihad and there is a ton of history of Muslim obedience to those directives going all the way back. No, the apt comparisons are violence with violence, and much is trumped up about the Crusades, the Inquisition and murderers of abortionists in the service of that comparison, which I've already answered. The first was a legitimate war, and the last two violate the spirit of Christianity. There is no comparison with the violence of Islam which is written in the texts.

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The extremest agenda comes from strict adherance to the Hadith. MOST Moslems DO NOT follow the Hadith at all. You need to recognize this.

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MOST Muslims are not fundamentalists. They do not take the written texts as seriously as the jihadis do, the ones you keep trying to dismiss as extremists as if they distorted the texts. They do not. They are true to the texts. The Hadiths are the views of THE Prophet Mohammed after all and the strictest followers adhere to them.

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in fact there is affinity between Islam and today's Left, at least the Left is very supportive of Islam, a very odd thing but there it is,

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The left supports tolerance and diversity. This just so happens to include not condemning people based on their culture or religion.

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The Left doesn't have a clue about tolerance and diversity. They've redefined both in bogus terms and their whole aim is to destroy what REAL tolerance and diversity always meant in our culture. Tolerance is originally civil behavior and kindness toward those of differing beliefs, but it is now defined as CAPITULATION to the demands of differing beliefs even if they destroy the established culture. That is not tolerance that is suicide. And this destructive travesty is enforced with a fanatical righteous indignation these days. In fact the purveyors of this leftist revisionist definition have just about ZERO "tolerance" for anybody who disagrees with them about this or anything else. They have NO notion of the true meaning of the term. They are nasty, scornful, sneering and often violent in the service of their upside down revisionist value system.They have redefined "diversity" into "multiculturalism" which is hostile to the dominant culture and the complete reversal of true Western respect for diversity which is respect for IDEAS, BELIEFS, intellectual freedom, freedom of conscience, and even these have been distorted by the left. For instance, Sharia Law is opposed to individual freedom, has absolute requirements for all kinds of behaviors, and extreme punishments like cutting off hands and stoning adulterers to death. There is no way to "tolerate" Sharia Law in a culture that prizes individual freedom, but this is exactly what Leftist activists seem determined to bring about.

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There is also an "affinity" toward eastern religions by the left. Why do you think that the left is singling out Islam in particular?

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Because they just tried to kill us. The Left is happy with anything that tries to kill America and our Western/Christian heritage.

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though many Muslim leaders also supported Hitler. All that is quite interesting to try to sort out. Curiouser and Curiouser.

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Which Moslem leaders? Name them please and provide quotes. Then establish that this is representative of many Moslem leaders . You do not get a free lunch on this forum sorry.

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Read what I posted about Joan Peters. She named a particular Jerusalem Mufti. Kramer said she was wrong to accuse him of direct participation in the Holocaust but quite right that he was a Nazi supporter. Sure, I'll put the requirement for evidence for this on my growing list of things I have to prove here that nobody else cares to check out. I've proved a ton of stuff already, but there's more out there.

Speaking of evidence I have to produce, I've been saving this reference to get back to it:Quite a few posts back somebody accused me of defending the supposed Israel-committed atrocities of the Sabila/Sabra incident, in the usual tone of moral indignation against evil Israel. Of course the following is questionable because it's a *gasp* Jewish website, but there are plenty of links at the site to help out the suspicious. The slaughter committed by the Phalangists is also an example of merely nominal cultural Christians.

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Do a little research before you start the fearnmongering.

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Sorry, I'm aware of the whole context and should have been more specific, but I have to say that ANY accommodation to Sharia Law WHATEVER in the West is a very very bad trend, and very much in keeping with the Leftist revisionist politics that have got everybody confused over the last few decades.