Islam does not hate christianity

I will say up front that I don't have the energy to track down the references, so this is off the top of my head, but the information is available that Islam is in its very essence opposed to Christianity and Judaism in particular, but in fact all other religions and all other human beings. You could start with Robert Spencer's "Jihad Watch." Sucuri WebSite Firewall - Access Denied Writers who illuminate the subject are Bat Ye'or, Walid Shoebat, Ibn Warraq among others.Muslim hatred of the West is not fundamentally political, it is simply made to appear political. Yes there are Muslim objections to the lifestyle of the West that figure in here, and they certainly resent our being on their turf at the moment, but that comes out of the religion, it is not fundamentally political. The antagonism with Israel is fueled primarily by Islam, it is not at all about settlements. The religion says Jews must go, Israel must go, and any kind of deception is permitted in that service. The reason there is not a Palestinian state is not that Israel has refused, it's that they refuse all states short of all of Israel. They draw their maps as if Israel did not exist. It's all "Palestine" though there never was a Palestinian people until Israel had become established there.Islam spread originally by the sword. There are two trends of Islam in the Koran, a peaceful trend and a warrior trend, having to do with two different periods in Mohammed's life, first when he wanted to spread his new religion peaceably, then when he found out he couldn't and took to lopping off people's heads for refusing to accept it. You can quote from the peaceful period and it sounds like a nice religion, but jihad comes out of the other period, and it is affirmed by Muslim scholars -- Allah must triumph, and all the "infidels" must either pay for the right to go on living in Muslim countries (read up on dhimmitude) or die. There is no such thing as freedom of conscience, there is only The Realm of Islam and The Realm of War. If you aren't Muslim you are in the Realm of War and an enemy they can deal with as they please if they have the power.Certainly there are peaceable Muslims, many of them, but they are those who do not take their religion as given. They can get along with Christians and Jews and others, and they can justify it from the "nice" parts of the Koran and spiritualize away the murderous parts. Some parts of the Koran speak pleasantly of Christians and Jews, other parts advocate murdering them at will. But the moderates do not stand a chance against the fundamentalists who take it all as the word of God. The terrorists simply believe they are commissioned by God to kill, and if you read their texts you have to agree it's all there in black and white.For those who claim all fundamentalisms are the same I would point out that the sad epochs in the history of Christianity are not justified by the Bible, they are violations of Christ's teaching from which Christians must repent, but the murders committed by Islam are PRESCRIBED in the Koran and the Hadiths of Mohammed.For just one little historical reference, when Washington and Adams were Presidents of the US they had the problem of dealing with Muslim pirates who would kidnap and enslave Americans because they considered them "Christians" and Christians are fair game for the servants of Allah. This prompted the Treaty of Tripoli which is famous for having declared that America is not a Christian nation.This ought to show that Islam's problems with the West ARE about Christianity and not current politics.
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Edited to add last line and correct a grammar problem.This message has been edited by Faith, 02-22-2005 13:25 AM

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Then perhaps it would be a good idea for you to wait until you've mustered that energy before you go spouting off on topics you don't understand and know nothing about.

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I've argued this at great length on other forums, but I do not have the references at hand and I have other things to do, and your rudeness doesn't even deserve this reply.

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Certainly there are peaceable Muslims, many of them, but they are those who do not take their religion as given.

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You mean they are fundamentalists. How are Muslim fundies any different than Christian fundies? Your description easily applies to either group.

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No, pay attention, they are NOT fundamentalists. The peaceful Muslims are NOT fundamentalists. The fundamentalists follow the murderous directives of their religion. The ones who do not take it as given -- or written -- are the moderates. And I answered the claim that all fundamentalisms are the same later. If the religion prescribes murdering everybody it's the fundamentalists who murder people. Christianity prescribes being at peace with all men, dying in fact rather than retaliating and the like. Two different fundamentalisms altogether, opposites.

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For those who claim all fundamentalisms are the same I would point out that the sad epochs in the history of Christianity are not justified by the Bible...

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Then how do you explain Deuteronomy 13, among other biblical admonitions to kill non-believers?

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Israel was God's instrument to show the world His law and His dealings with humanity. If they were to be His people they had to be HIS and not belong to the demon gods of the heathen. This was all done with complete consent of the people. Abraham made a covenant with God and his son and grandson renewed the covenant. The people under Moses took an oath to obey. If you didn't take that oath then this doesn't apply to you. Israel shows the laws of God any nation should honor, but the terms of the covenant ONLY applied to Israel.

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Islam spread originally by the sword.

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And that is somehow worse than the genocide ordered by God himself in 1 Samuel 15?

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Well, militant fundamentalist Islam wants you personally either bowing to Mecca five times a day, living in servitude and paying exorbitant taxes to your Muslim rulers, or dead, and if they get the opportunity they will indeed subject you to those terms.God ordered specific annihilations for specific purposes of justice. Amalek was an inveterate enemy of God and God's people. Are you an Amalekite? In any case those were historically limited actions in the distant past ordered by God for specific purposes. Islam orders the death of all "infidels" willy nilly, and will act on it whenever they have the power to do so.Have a good day.

I'm aware of all those claims and there are plenty of reasons to believe that is not exactly how it happened. Dhimmitude is deep humiliation and being treated like a dog, and it isn't just paying a little tax, it is a tax that keeps a person in poverty.

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Are you really so totally ignorant of Christian History? Do you have any idea who Constantine was and the part he played in the spread of Christianity?

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Learn something instead of recycling political correctness.Here:HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH*HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH*Have a good day.

I haven't the time or patience to answer the kind of hateful bias that goes on at this site. But here's another site for you all to ponder.WordPress › Error

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...it would seem that your "references" are nothing but fundie apologetics.

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The sources would all be very surprised to hear that. Not one fundie among them, in fact only one Christian, from before the term "fundamentalist" was coined, the author of a scholarly work on the history of Christianity.

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Israel was God's instrument to show the world His law and His dealings with humanity.

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Thank you for justifying genocide. Not many fundies have the guts to come right out and say that genocide is justifiable. It's good when one of you slips up and reveals your true colors. Now we know where you're coming from.

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So many these days are apparently incapable of discriminating between murder and justice on just about every major issue. To call God's justice genocide is a case of this popular moral reversal. It's very sad.

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Amalek was an inveterate enemy of God and God's people.

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The children of the Amalekites were killed too, ya know. I guess that's okay though, since you don't have a problem with genocide.

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God's judgments are very disturbing. Nobody wants anyone to die, certainly not I, but such incidents were written for people to learn from, about the nature and consequences of sin -- the wages of sin is death. The moral high ground you think you are standing on is extremely shaky.

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But just for the record, those Amalekites, including the suckling babies who God - in his infinite mercy - ordered killed, were the descendants of the Amalekites who had confronted the Israelis. The genocide was ordered some 400 years after the original offense. No way any of the actual perpetrators were still alive, only their descendants several generations later.

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That is correct, and it was written in order to teach something about the moral nature of the universe you live in, a lesson that you are refusing to learn.Exodus 34:6-7 The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear [the guilty]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth [generation].

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But then again, since genocide is cool with you I suppose none of this matters.

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God's justice is terrible but right.

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The religion says Jews must go, Israel must go, and any kind of deception is permitted in that service. The reason there is not a Palestinian state is not that Israel has refused, it's that they refuse all states short of all of Israel. They draw their maps as if Israel did not exist. It's all "Palestine" though there never was a Palestinian people until Israel had become established there.

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Wrong. They believed they worshipped the same God. With assertions like one above you attempt to rewrite history.

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Wrong. There's a ton of evidence for what I'm saying out there. If you start with Jihad Watch and faithfreedom.org you'll find it.They believed they worshipped the same God, yes, but that their new revelation cancelled out the Biblical revelation and is intended to conquer the world, and those who stick to the Biblical religions are now infidels for rejecting the new revelation. The Koran changes Biblical facts, makes Ishmael Abraham's heir instead of Isaac as the Bible says, even confuses Mary the mother of Jesus with Miriam the sister of Moses. They consider this the truth and the Bible false. They changed the name of God. In the Bible God gives His N ame as YHWH, "I Am that I Am." That is His Name. It is not Allah. The name Allah was originally the name of the moon god, one of hundreds of idol gods that were housed at Mecca before Mohammed made it Muslim. Yes, Muslims believe they worship the same God, but they don't.

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The christians only had to pay tribute to stay on their lands.

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Basically they had to pay for the privilege of remaining alive. The same for the Jews throughout most of their history under Islam, in spite of a "golden age" in which they supposedly fared well, though indications are that it wasn't as golden as they would like to think.

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Islam spread originally by the sword.

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Actually it didn't. You could make a better correlation to that statement and christianity, noting the inquisition and the crusades.

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The Crusades were European wars to repel the Muslims who had invaded Europe and the Holy Land. It had nothing whatever to do with spreading Christianity. If you would look at the link I provided to the history of how Christianity was spread you would see that it had nothing to do with force. The Inquisition also had nothing to do with the spread of Christianity, it was one of the corrupt actions of the corrupt Roman church, and since I identify with the Protestants the Inquisition martyred I don't consider the Inquisition to have anything to do with Christianity.

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You judge Islam by muslim pirates?

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Try to keep context in mind. I was answering the idea that Muslim objections to the West are politically inspired by current events. The pirates were simply out to abuse Christians for being Christian. It's all about conquering the world for Allah and ridding the world of Allah's enemies, either by conversion or by murder.This message has been edited by Faith, 02-23-2005 01:39 AM

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...it is a tax that keeps a person in poverty.

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I think you are misrepresenting things when you state this. Is it your opinon? or fact? that there are more poor Christians than poor Muslims in Islamic states and that it is due directly to the taxation of the Christians?

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The tax is designed to humiliate and torment. There may be more dirt poor Muslims because the religion does not reward enterprise and success, but at least they have had the privilege of pushing Christians and Jews off the sidewalks. It's fact but I have to find the research. Christians are also forbidden to own a dwelling that is taller than a Muslim's and churches must always be smaller than mosques.

Right on, Buzsaw. What a relief! Somebody here who knows something.

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That is correct, and it was written in order to teach something about the moral nature of the universe you live in

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How can that be when it runs so clearly counter to our own moral sense?

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Our moral sense is fallen. We reject anything that hurts us of course. We don't want to be punished for sin. We hate the idea of Hell. But those are reasons God needed to give us His revelation, to inform us, to warn us away from the terrible consequences of sin. The entire Bible is such a warning and instruction.

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God's justice is terrible but right.

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By what moral reasoning? Or is it only "right" because God is God, and anything he does must be right?

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It's right because it's right, but we can't start out accepting the Bible in the parts that talk about God's punishments. We aren't built that way. One only comes to accept the hard stuff after getting to know God's goodness and mercy and love, and then we are humbled from our own moral high horse and can say that we know God is right in all His judgments and we defer to His judgments because He is good whether we understand it all or not. If you don't KNOW He is good from other evidence, it will always be hard to accept what your fallen mind rejects. Jesus quoted from just about the entire Old Testament after all, identified Himself as the God who inspired it, and He rebuked His followers who had any impulses toward violence.

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Our moral sense is fallen.

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How can mercy, fairness, and forbearance be a fallen condition?

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They aren't our own moral sense by a long shot, they are hard-won virtues. They come from God. Hardly anybody lives up to them. I suspect that in fact you are misapplying them. A society can't let sociopaths go free to harm people. That's not mercy, that's simply a violation of justice. You can't forbear crimes against others, that's a violation of justice. God gave His law and clearly defined the just consequences of disobedience. He never acts whimsically. People always know what they are getting into.

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That's what we're arguing about, after all. God says these children need to be slaughtered; we disagree. And somehow it's our moral sense that is fallen, that is degenerate? How can you fall your way to virtue?

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There is no virtue in your moral sense. That's where you have to start. You have to realize you are wrong, but you think you are right. So did the people in the time of Judges "who did what was right in their own eyes" instead of what was right in God's eyes. We have a terrible time understanding why God has children die, but I don't expect to understand it, simply say I know God is good. As I said it can't be understood until you first realize that He is good. I'd add you also need to realize that you are wrong, a sinner, not the righteous person you think you are.

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One only comes to accept the hard stuff after getting to know God's goodness and mercy and love, and then we are humbled from our own moral high horse and can say that we know God is right in all His judgments and we defer to His judgments because He is good whether we understand it all or not.

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How does that make any sense? How can we be expected to come to understand the goodness and mercy and love of God if these are not traits that he exemplifies? You commit a grave error of circular reasoning, here. You assume that God is loving, and conclude that the slaughter of the children was an act of love. But the only reasonable conclusion is that the slaughter of the children demonstrates that God is not loving.

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No, there are other evidences of God's love and goodness, tons of them, in the Bible and in our own lives. Instead of locking horns with God over the parts that offend you, you have to start with Jesus and the other evidences of God's goodness.

"There is no one good, no not one" is in a psalm and quoted in the New Testament. "All our righteousness is as filthy rags" in the eyes of God. That's in Isaiah I think. "All we like sheep have gone astray." That's definitely in Isaiah. blueletterbible.org if you need to look them up.Good night. I'm going to bed.

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Hey, Faith, let`s move away from the Amalekites. You believe God created bacteria? Viruses?

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Both Amalekites and bacteria are off topic. The topic is Islam. But of course God created bacteria and viruses. SUSCEPTIBILITY to disease, however, is the product of sin in the whole human race.

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Christians and Jews have always had favoured status among infidels in the Islamic worls as also being People of the Book.

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You've been reading propaganda. You need to read the people who know what really happened. If I have time later I will dig up more references, but jihadwatch.org and faithfreedom.org have lots of resources for anybody who wants to know the truth about Islam. Neither is a Christian site.

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care to back this statement with some real examples? Back home in Indonesia I think the Christians on average are slightly more prosperous than the majority Muslims. There are large churches and large houses owned by Christians in my hometown. You high on something or what?

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Perhaps they haven't gotten around to enforcing Sharia on the infidels where you come from, as the Muslims are latecomers outside of the Middle East. But there's plenty of persecution of Christians by Muslims going on wherever there are both groups.