Islam does not hate christianity

I've seen a few christians speaking of Islam and how they are wrong and don't worship the same God. I've seen some say Muslims hate christians. This is a common misconception that bothers me. The Ottoman Turks didn't force the christians to leave and they didn't persecute them. They respected christians. They knew that they both worshipped the same God. They didn't hate Jesus. The christians only had to pay tribute to stay on their lands. The only reason Muslims fought christians was because of the crusades.Even now fundamentalist muslims are looked as haters of christianity. They aren't. They hate Americans. We come and push capitalism on them, try to force democracy and this corporate, manufactured, phony world on the muslims. Look at things through Osama bin Laden's eyes. You see a land you love, torn apart by superpowers, the beauty of these lands defiled by corporations, concrete, the beauty of goods made is lost, instead you have mass manufactured products, the beauty of life being ripped from your hands. He stood to do something about it and essentially by himself defeated the greatest nation in the world.I'm in not condoning the death he caused was good, but our nation deserved something. Not the innocent people, but the government.Islam has never hated christians since Mohammed, they saw us as brothers.Islam has a right to hate America.This message has been edited by chris porcelain, 02-21-2005 00:11 AM

---

-one word to describe me, spectacular yes

Chris, you have got a deep starting thread, there! Many thoughtful people would agree with you, yet many others would say that you are simplifying the issue. Do you think that America will ever give up its right to freedom and its desire for materialism for Jesus?
Do you think we will ever as a nation become a Christian one? (Hint: We are NOT one now!)Shall I move this to Faith and Belief?This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 02-21-2005 02:23 AM

YeahWe are followers of capitalism, not christianity.

quote:

---

Thomas:
(64) Jesus said, "A man had received visitors. And when he had prepared the dinner, he sent his servant to invite the guests.
He went to the first one and said to him, 'My master invites you.' He said, 'I have claims against some merchants. They are coming to me this evening. I must go and give them my orders. I ask to be excused from the dinner.'
He went to another and said to him, 'My master has invited you.' He said to him, 'I have just bought a house and am required for the day. I shall not have any spare time.'
He went to another and said to him, 'My master invites you.' He said to him, 'My friend is going to get married, and I am to prepare the banquet. I shall not be able to come. I ask to be excused from the dinner.'
He went to another and said to him, 'My master invites you.' He said to him, 'I have just bought a farm, and I am on my way to collect the rent. I shall not be able to come. I ask to be excused.'
The servant returned and said to his master, 'Those whom you invited to the dinner have asked to be excused.' The master said to his servant, 'Go outside to the streets and bring back those whom you happen to meet, so that they may dine.' Businessmen and merchants will not enter the places of my father."

---

If there is a revolution against it, we may have a chance to return to God.

---

-one word to describe me, spectacular yes

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

quote:

---

If there is a revolution against it, we may have a chance to return to God.

---

Bollocks. Christianity is a dogma of oppression; its product is willing an obedient slaves. It is NOT an accident that the most vehement support for American Imperialism comes from the nexus of right-wing politics and religion; religion is primarily a conservative influence that rationalises the government as good.A revolution against capitalism would make religion even less significant, as the obfuscatory and propagandist role of the church will no longer be required.This message has been edited by contracycle, 02-22-2005 04:01 AM

Chris.I would like for you ask yourself very seriously if the issue is really one of religion vs religion or is it one of exclusionary philosophy vs exclusionary philosophy?Fundamentalism by it's very nature seems to say "We are right and everyone else is wrong". Do all fundamental positions seem alike in that regard? Is there really a difference in that regard between Fundamental Republicans, or Fundamental Democrats, or Fundamental Muslims, of Fundamental Christians, or Fundamental Nationalists, or Fundamental Capitalists or Fundamental Communists, or Fundamental Atheists?Is the issue that certain groups exist in an environment where they cannot or will not envision the idea that others might be equally right?

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I will say up front that I don't have the energy to track down the references, so this is off the top of my head, but the information is available that Islam is in its very essence opposed to Christianity and Judaism in particular, but in fact all other religions and all other human beings. You could start with Robert Spencer's "Jihad Watch." Sucuri WebSite Firewall - Access Denied Writers who illuminate the subject are Bat Ye'or, Walid Shoebat, Ibn Warraq among others.Muslim hatred of the West is not fundamentally political, it is simply made to appear political. Yes there are Muslim objections to the lifestyle of the West that figure in here, and they certainly resent our being on their turf at the moment, but that comes out of the religion, it is not fundamentally political. The antagonism with Israel is fueled primarily by Islam, it is not at all about settlements. The religion says Jews must go, Israel must go, and any kind of deception is permitted in that service. The reason there is not a Palestinian state is not that Israel has refused, it's that they refuse all states short of all of Israel. They draw their maps as if Israel did not exist. It's all "Palestine" though there never was a Palestinian people until Israel had become established there.Islam spread originally by the sword. There are two trends of Islam in the Koran, a peaceful trend and a warrior trend, having to do with two different periods in Mohammed's life, first when he wanted to spread his new religion peaceably, then when he found out he couldn't and took to lopping off people's heads for refusing to accept it. You can quote from the peaceful period and it sounds like a nice religion, but jihad comes out of the other period, and it is affirmed by Muslim scholars -- Allah must triumph, and all the "infidels" must either pay for the right to go on living in Muslim countries (read up on dhimmitude) or die. There is no such thing as freedom of conscience, there is only The Realm of Islam and The Realm of War. If you aren't Muslim you are in the Realm of War and an enemy they can deal with as they please if they have the power.Certainly there are peaceable Muslims, many of them, but they are those who do not take their religion as given. They can get along with Christians and Jews and others, and they can justify it from the "nice" parts of the Koran and spiritualize away the murderous parts. Some parts of the Koran speak pleasantly of Christians and Jews, other parts advocate murdering them at will. But the moderates do not stand a chance against the fundamentalists who take it all as the word of God. The terrorists simply believe they are commissioned by God to kill, and if you read their texts you have to agree it's all there in black and white.For those who claim all fundamentalisms are the same I would point out that the sad epochs in the history of Christianity are not justified by the Bible, they are violations of Christ's teaching from which Christians must repent, but the murders committed by Islam are PRESCRIBED in the Koran and the Hadiths of Mohammed.For just one little historical reference, when Washington and Adams were Presidents of the US they had the problem of dealing with Muslim pirates who would kidnap and enslave Americans because they considered them "Christians" and Christians are fair game for the servants of Allah. This prompted the Treaty of Tripoli which is famous for having declared that America is not a Christian nation.This ought to show that Islam's problems with the West ARE about Christianity and not current politics.
============
Edited to add last line and correct a grammar problem.This message has been edited by Faith, 02-22-2005 13:25 AM

Faith writes:

quote:

---

I will say up front that I don't have the energy to track down the reference...

---

Then perhaps it would be a good idea for you to wait until you've mustered that energy before you go spouting off on topics you don't understand and know nothing about.

quote:

---

Certainly there are peaceable Muslims, many of them, but they are those who do not take their religion as given.

---

You mean they are fundamentalists. How are Muslim fundies any different than Christian fundies? Your description easily applies to either group.

quote:

---

For those who claim all fundamentalisms are the same I would point out that the sad epochs in the history of Christianity are not justified by the Bible...

---

Then how do you explain Deuteronomy 13, among other biblical admonitions to kill non-believers?

quote:

---

Islam spread originally by the sword.

---

And that is somehow worse than the genocide ordered by God himself in 1 Samuel 15?

---

Keep America Safe AND Free!

Are you really so totally ignorant of Christian History? Do you have any idea who Constantine was and the part he played in the spread of Christianity?

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

quote:

---

The religion says Jews must go, Israel must go, and any kind of deception is permitted in that service.

---

You don't seem to be aware that for centuries Jews lived pretty peacefully in the Islamic world, even achieving high positions in government service. I believe that Christians and Jews had to pay a special tax, but were otherwise allowed to practice their faiths in peace (compare that with the treatment of Jews and Muslims in medievel Europe).Much of the enmity that exists today between Jews and Muslims has existed only for about 100 years or so, when Britain began allowing relatively large numbers of European Jews to settle in Palestine, often giving their communities special treatment and favors, and often refusing to recognize the rights of the indigenous Arabs.

You replying to me?If so, I totally agree. The emnity between Muslims and Jews or Muslims and Christians has never come up except when European Christians mucked around in the middle east.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

quote:

---

Then perhaps it would be a good idea for you to wait until you've mustered that energy before you go spouting off on topics you don't understand and know nothing about.

---

I've argued this at great length on other forums, but I do not have the references at hand and I have other things to do, and your rudeness doesn't even deserve this reply.

quote:

---

Certainly there are peaceable Muslims, many of them, but they are those who do not take their religion as given.

​

You mean they are fundamentalists. How are Muslim fundies any different than Christian fundies? Your description easily applies to either group.

---

No, pay attention, they are NOT fundamentalists. The peaceful Muslims are NOT fundamentalists. The fundamentalists follow the murderous directives of their religion. The ones who do not take it as given -- or written -- are the moderates. And I answered the claim that all fundamentalisms are the same later. If the religion prescribes murdering everybody it's the fundamentalists who murder people. Christianity prescribes being at peace with all men, dying in fact rather than retaliating and the like. Two different fundamentalisms altogether, opposites.

quote:

---

For those who claim all fundamentalisms are the same I would point out that the sad epochs in the history of Christianity are not justified by the Bible...

​

Then how do you explain Deuteronomy 13, among other biblical admonitions to kill non-believers?

---

Israel was God's instrument to show the world His law and His dealings with humanity. If they were to be His people they had to be HIS and not belong to the demon gods of the heathen. This was all done with complete consent of the people. Abraham made a covenant with God and his son and grandson renewed the covenant. The people under Moses took an oath to obey. If you didn't take that oath then this doesn't apply to you. Israel shows the laws of God any nation should honor, but the terms of the covenant ONLY applied to Israel.

quote:

---

:
Islam spread originally by the sword.

​

And that is somehow worse than the genocide ordered by God himself in 1 Samuel 15?

---

Well, militant fundamentalist Islam wants you personally either bowing to Mecca five times a day, living in servitude and paying exorbitant taxes to your Muslim rulers, or dead, and if they get the opportunity they will indeed subject you to those terms.God ordered specific annihilations for specific purposes of justice. Amalek was an inveterate enemy of God and God's people. Are you an Amalekite? In any case those were historically limited actions in the distant past ordered by God for specific purposes. Islam orders the death of all "infidels" willy nilly, and will act on it whenever they have the power to do so.Have a good day.

Sorry. I must have copied the quote, scrolled down to see what else people have said, and then pushed the wrong reply button. That was meant to be a response to Faith's post.

I'm aware of all those claims and there are plenty of reasons to believe that is not exactly how it happened. Dhimmitude is deep humiliation and being treated like a dog, and it isn't just paying a little tax, it is a tax that keeps a person in poverty.

quote:

---

Are you really so totally ignorant of Christian History? Do you have any idea who Constantine was and the part he played in the spread of Christianity?

---

Learn something instead of recycling political correctness.Here:HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH*HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH*Have a good day.