Islam does not hate christianity

When I read things like this I cannot help but be embarassed to be called a Christian in the same breath as people who actually think this is true. No offense to you in particular Faith but you really are speaking in ignorance. I already had to go over this with DarkStar and I don't want to repeat it so I hope you read the discussion that started here: Message 44The discussion proceeded for several posts so to see where this intersects your argument you may have to read to the end of the thread.If you want to pick up where DarkStar left off then you can count on my to be there. I'll tell you now though that you will not get far at all telling me that my ancestors cultural identity is a figment of the political climate. I am not trying to be rude. Maybe you need to start reading actual history and what Islam actually believes rather than what some fundy apologetic site or organization tells you.

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By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria.
-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

The titles and authors of said books would be helpful. They may or may not negate my experience of actually having half of my family be Moslem.If you didn't get your sources from "fundy" sites then I appologize. If you started reading the thread I linked to then you might understand how I might think that some people can be shallow and brainwashed by only refering to doctrine they agree with.Now about the main point of my reply. Do you wish to defend or retract you position that there was no such thing as a Palestinian prior to Israel's influence? I won't let this go as long as you are posting here.

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By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria.
-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

I might be wrong so you should help me. Please show me where in the Koran it encourages the type of behavior you are talking about.Certainly the Hadith talk about this but not all "Islamic fundamentalists" follow the Hadith just like not all of the "Christian fundamentalists" blow up abortion clinics and blame disasters on homosexuals.Historical atrocities done in the name of religion should not define a religion or else Christianity and Islam would be in the same boat. It sure is a good thing that we all are reasonable people on this forum who realize that the actions of men do not define the righteousness of God. Oh wait...Painting this picture of Moslems as practitioners of this violent religion sure must make it easer to sleep at night while we kill them or allow them to be killed by the thousands.

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By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria.
-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

Yet... ... is not propaganda?!?!? Which does not free them of the obvious agenda plastered everywhere. Yes you are right that Christian does not equal Moslem hater but if you think that those sites represent a pinnacle of objectivity then I don't feel you have a leg to stand on outright calling other peoples sources, which they have yet to disclose, propaganda!

People often get the Koran and the Hadith confused. Most of the violent actions performed by those considered radical Islamists stems from strict adherance to the Hadith which many Moslems do not recognize.If you know of a part of the Koran that specifically encourages the type of behavior of the likes of Bin Laden then please share them.

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By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria.
-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

That IS a great passage.Funny thing about most of the Moslems I know. They consider the Bible to be the holy word of God that has been corrupted by man. Some can even quote the Bible better than many Christians.Heck, most of them believe that Christ is coming back on judgement day! They believe in most of what the Gospels say and treat Jesus as an extremely important figure in their religion. They just don't believe that Jesus is the son of God.Saying that Moslems are anti-Christian is just plain ignorant.

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By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria.
-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

Maybe we need to stop using this term. Perhaps extremist, radical, or some other word might better represent the type of people we are talking about. I would consider Osama Bin Laden to be a radical Moslem and Jerry Falwell to be a radical Christian. Both believe in righteous violence toward other people is supported by their religion. You really need to read that thread. You are treading on very sensitive ground with this. My family lived in a small town near Ramullah for over a dozen generations. Whoever told you this is lying to you. Other Arabs call us Philistinis and have for quite a long time. Again, please read that thread. Except for the people who lived there for hundreds of years and have been called Philistinis for that long. Like me. Well the house that my great-great grandfather built that is still standing today might disagree with your "evidence". I am more likely to believe the people who have actually lived there over other who are likely to have a political bias toward "evidence" that the Palestinian people are not native.Not even DarkStar was bold enough to try to say that Palestinians didn't live there before the Israeli occupation. That evidence better be pretty darn solid. Palestinians did not have a "national identity" before Israel was formed. There was no concept of a nation to them so there might have been some confusion over the issue. I certainly don't take the word of one apologetic Jordanian over generations of family history that have been passed down to me.Please read that thread. You may understand a little better where I am coming from. You will have to try a little harder though next time to try to prove to me that my family never existed.This message has been edited by Jazzns, 02-23-2005 16:44 AM

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By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria.
-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

Except for most of the Moslems I know or have ever met in my entire lifetime. Certainly some Moslems from certain countries like Afganistan put more emphasis on the Hadith but the majority of Moslems in more liberal countries and every single one that I have met either in the US our out have not."I believe" is not reality. Sorry buzsaw.

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By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria.
-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

See my reply to buzsaw. This is an incorrect statement. Any Moslem that I have ever had the pleasure of meeting treat the Hadith in the same regard as Christians treat varities of Bible commentary. Some take it to extremes and others disregard it. The Koran is what matters to Moslems. Exactly. The atrocities done by men in the name of God do not define God. That applies to both Christianity and Islam. You seem to think that Islam should be singled out by the actions of its radicals. All of the quotes you gave are irrelevant or completely out of context. Often the Koran says that if you are being forced into the ways of a non-believer that you can fight to defend your faith. Of course when you just pull the quote that says "fight" out of the entire passage it sure looks like it is a religion that condones violence doesn't it?For example, lets take Sura 9:5. First it is out of context. Second it is not even the whole quote. Lets take a look.9.4: Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).
9.5: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.No one is denying that Islam allows violence. This is part of why I chose Christianity over Islam. But it certainly is not the false picture of an active army out to destroy infidels like you make it out to be.Another example, you quote Sura 8:60 which in my translation is:8:60: And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you do not know (but) Allah knows them; and whatever thing you will spend in Allah's way, it will be paid back to you fully and you shall not be dealt with unjustly.And if you keep reading:8:61: And if they incline to peace, then incline to it and trust in Allah; surely He is the Hearing, the Knowing.Seems as though the Koran says you can defend yourself and your faith with violence if you must. While I personally don't agree with violence it is a position that I respect on an intellectual level. In other words, you are wrong. Try again.This message has been edited by Jazzns, 02-23-2005 22:16 AM

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By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria.
-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

Depends, if you go into Afganistan or Iran where they often take the Hadith over the Koran then you will have problems. There are a TON of Palestinian Christians though and in other areas in more liberal areas of the middle east. Depends. This is actually a relativly new "feature" of western society within the span of history. Other religions were not to well regarded in western civilization and even now are just tolerated. Which is a feature of the extremest infused political climate of that particular country and NOT indicative of Islam, Islamic countries, or Moselms generally at all!

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By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria.
-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

So the fact that there were relatively few of them in comparison to the settlers justifies pushing a people aside for imperalistic purposes? Ever hear of the trail of tears?You may be right and I'll look into just how many "indigenous Palestinians" lived there before the occupation. I know that my family was not alone. We lived in a town full of families where there was at least a half a dozen clans. The town is also considered small in comparison to others in the area. I am willing to bet that a good number of apologetic sources would underestimate the figure. I'll clarify no such thing. My family did not live in a vaccum. I even doubt that "most" of who now claim to be Palestinians are not native. I do agree that the idea of a Palestinian nationality IS a new thing mainly because the idea of nationalities in general was new to the people of the time. This may be where the confusion is.Even if you sources are accurate I don't see how it justifies a damn thing. Even if it is true which I currently doubt, how does this make the incursion and the attrocites justified?How is the adoption of a Philistini nationality where not had existed before a political agenda when no concept of nationality had even been known before? It is like saying you cannot be a homeowner if you just discovered that houses exist. It dosen't make any sense.If I have time I'll look into your sources. If they are anything like the place you retrieved your Koran quotes though I have reason to suspect that they are pro-Israel, pro-Imperialist like just about every other "history of Palestine" I have been refered to by people who hold the same position as you.This message has been edited by Jazzns, 02-23-2005 22:38 AM

There was no such thing as a Palestinian state. I have never said there was. There was no concept of a nationality prior to western influence. It does not change the fact that there were indigenous people who lived there for many generations perfectly happily who called themselves and were called Philistini. Or more specifically, "the ones who live in the area called Philistin".If you didn't read the conversation I had with DarkStar then maybe you should go back to the post I made to Faith prior to this one that you responded to. From that post to the end of that thread I defended this position.If it makes you feel better to believe your source then go ahead. I can't change your mind. If you want to continue to display this misconception in public though then you will have to recognize the fact that you are talking to a descendant of a NATIVE PALESTINIAN. Think about that the next time you say there is no such thing as a "Palestinian People".The Cherokee didn't have a nation yet they can still be called Cherokee People. Were they just indigenous speed bumps for imperialism too?

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By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria.
-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

Let me try this again. Not all Moslems follow the Hadith over the Koran, in fact most do not.I gave you two examples of how those quotes were out of context. Would you like to go through the rest?No one is trying to say that Islam is a "turn the other cheek" religion. It says quite plainly that violence is ok in certain circumstances. It also says that peace is preferred! What Islam is not is the faith-imperialism that so many paranioid Christians in this country fear so much. Did you even read my whole post? Ok so what. Yes the extremists follow the Hadith and twist the Koran for their violent purposes. Why then are you arguing that Islam IN GENERAL is against Christianity when MOST Moslems are not "fundamentalists"?

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By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria.
-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

Lets try to simplify it. An exception. The violence to idolators, are they the same ones you made the agreement with? Now the part that you left out of your quote: If they are cool with you and don't want to kill you for dissing their pagan gods then don't kill them.The translation is very difficult. Much is lost between Arabic and English so you have to be careful. The point is not that it is not violent. The point is that it is not imperialistic like you seem to think. Moslems are not out to get you if you don't convert. Your quote made it seem like Moslems believe that they should just ambush unbelievers for no reason. This is false once you place this in context.It is the equivalent of me saying that the Bible says, "There is no God". When you put this in context it ACTUALLY says, "Only a fool believes in his heart, there is no God." You are doing the same thing with your quotes. Go ahead and continue to support them as they stand in your post but you are making yourself look pretty silly and spiteful in doing so. No offense intended, just trying to tell it like it is. Not some Moslems, most. Turn your statement around, "I'm aware that some Christians insist on taking Bible quotes in context". OF COURSE THEY DO! It makes no sense and can be twisted around to mean the opposite if quotes are taken out of context. This is called quote mining. People do it with the Bible all the time and it pisses me off when they do it there too.About "fundamentalist Islamists", at some point you are going to have to realize that they are the extreme minority in comparison to the Moslem world as a whole. Yes, I AGREEE that the radical Moslems are out to get you. Mainstream Moslems are not though and that IS the point. Considering that my original challenges still stand in regards to your blatant over generalization of Islam and Palestinians, I feel no need to raise further challenges at this time.

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By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria.
-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

One more time. I can do this all night. The Hadith is not a holy book to MOST Moslems!The Koran ONLY condones violence when you take it out of context like you so admirably demonstrated.Extremists are not being true to the text. They are twisting it to they own violent/worldly needs just like tons of Christians do all the time. No it is not. Your misunderstanding of Islam does but real Islam does not. I am sorry Faith but your position on this is not very strong. Reality overrides your belief. No. The extremists put more weight in the Hadith which define jihad more in the terms of what you fear so much. Just like how some Chrsitians now adays are worshiping the Left Behind series of books based on the bible but are not actually the bible. Now you are getting it I think. If you don't know then don't say most. Most do not follow the extreme teachings of the Hadith. The Moslem world is very big and even large places like Iran and Afganistan are pale in comparison. There may be. But speculation does not lead to outright generalization of a religion as one based on violence and hate like it seems to have been done in this thread. Almost all Moslems I know were very much afraid after 9/11. I know not a single one who expressed happiness in any form. And they have every right to be afraid. A cousin of mine was threatened with deportation. Another was detained by the FBI based on an "anonymous tip".The 10 second sound bites you get of a group of Arabs burning an American flag (which coincidently was footage taken from WAY BEFORE 9/11 in one case) does not represent the opinion of most Moslems.

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By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria.
-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show