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Author | Topic: The Bible on Sex, Love, and Marriage | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
I told you, I just think things are moving too fast.
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Mespo Member (Idle past 2916 days) Posts: 158 From: Mesopotamia, Ohio, USA Joined: |
dpardo writes: Ideally, any good husband is going to listen to counsel from his wife concerning the affairs of the marriage. Especially in areas where the wife's knowledge/ability exceeds the husband's. But, ultimately, if they disagree on the course of action to take, the husband, the bible claims, is to have the final say. Perhaps it is the ideal, dpardo, but I have to go with what works for me, here and now. I see nothing wrong with conceding that my wife may have a better solution to a particular problem than I have. It's not a matter of who wins or who is on top or who is El Supremo. As for what worked for a married couple several thousand years ago, I can only say "how quaint." (:raig
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1375 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
The bible declares that the husband is the person that God has chosen to be the leader. bear in mind the context of this statement. it's a curse, like the curse on man, and curse on the serpent.
quote:
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1375 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
If you read the verses that Arach. supplied above, there's no "think" about it. Women are second-class, both in the OT and to at least one of the guys that wrote under the name of Paul. oh, i was hardly being fair. verses like this suggest equality:
quote: quote: women, traditionally in the ot times were not second-class per se. they just had separate roles to play. it's not until the time of paul, with the greek infusion that sex (and therefore somehow women) becomes evil. earlier traditions could have been written to be alot more condescending of women. for instance, the eve story. adam gets just as much blame as eve, who gets just as much blame as the serpent, and all three are cursed. compare this to say, pandora's box, a greek myth. there, a woman alone is responsible for bringing evil into the world. those verse i posted were more in spite of paul than the rest of the bible. i don't like paul.
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 765 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
i don't like paul.
Me neither. Cranky old misygonist!
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1375 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Cranky old misygonist! among other things.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Why? There are many equal partnerships in life in which neither partner has the final say all the time, about everything.
quote: There are several problems with this analogy. A marriage is between two people, not a whole group. A marriage is a love relationship for life, not a group that comes together to accomplish a task.
quote: In a equal partnership, why can't the two people come to mutually-negotiated descisions together? Why won't that work?
quote: Why can't two people have success by discussing the various courses of action that may be taken and then come to a mutually agreed-upon descision?
quote: But, he doesn't have to listen to her. IT is pretty much optional for him. Ultimately, her opinions do not count. What it seems to boil down to is that the man always can get his way because he can always overrule his wife no matter what, because God says so. All of this, "Yes, we'll listen to what the little woman has to say before I make the descision" crap is just incredibly patronizing. That is not an equal partnership. Nor is it a relationship between adults. That is a parent/child relationship. That is not healthy. This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-15-2004 07:52 AM
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dpardo Inactive Member |
Hi Arachnophilia,
Actually, I was thinking of Ephesians 5:21-33 when I wrote that:
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
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dpardo Inactive Member |
Hi Schrafinator,
You wrote:
In a equal partnership, why can't the two people come to mutually-negotiated descisions together? Why won't that work? They can and it would work. The ultimate decision falls on the man when they can't come to an agreement.
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dpardo Inactive Member |
Schrafinator writes: But, he doesn't have to listen to her. IT is pretty much optional for him. Ultimately, her opinions do not count. What it seems to boil down to is that the man always can get his way because he can always overrule his wife no matter what, because God says so. This would be an abuse of his authority. Obviously, the scenario you described can and does happen. The downside to that, obviously, is that the marriage will suffer. If the husband completely ignores the wife's input, there will be strife and resentment. To the extent that they both fulfill their roles, they will have a rewarding marriage.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1375 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
you can ALMOST read a healthy attitude into that verse, which is why i didn't post it the first time around. it's too ambiguous. it says that men should lead, but at the same time be considerate. that's nice and all, but it still promotes male dominance of the family.
also, please read it in context of the other paul verses i posted on the page before. paul clearly does not like women.
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dpardo Inactive Member |
Hi Arachnophilia,
You wrote:
that's nice and all, but it still promotes male dominance of the family. Paul's words promote love and respect. What promotes "male dominance of the family" and all that that implies, is sin.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1375 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
we reading different books here?
quote: sounds like male dominance to me. i don't care if he says that men should be good masters of their wives, he still says that men should be masters of their wives.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: But if a husband ultimately has the final say, isn't that an awful lot like a parent/child relationship? When the man and wife, who are both mature adults, disagree, why should the man always have the final say, as if he is the parent and she is the child? That a man should want his wife to submit to his dominance in this way is really icky. That a woman should be taught to always submit to another's will to be a good wife is demeaning. An adult relationship is one where neither person can simply overrule the other's will.
quote: But see, that's not what the evidence shows. The evidence shows that, by definition, these roles lead to the highest divorce rates among all groups. The lowest divorce rates come from non-believers.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: The thing is, just having the "authority" at all is a really big problem if you want to have a healthy, adult relationship. Do you have a best friend? Which one of you has the "authority" to make descisions for your relationship if you both disagree about something? Seems silly, and kind of offensive if you imagine yourself as the one having to submit to another's descision in disagreements, doesn't it? My point is, there are many, many outdated practices mentioned in the Bible: how one should keep slaves, sell their daughters, use women, etc. Why are the obviously anachronistic marriage rules followed when all of these other rules are ignored? Women are not chattel anymore. They are even considered to be full human beings. Lately, we've even begun to think of them as just as intelligent and grown up as men. Why force them to be less than fully adult because you pick and choose what you will follow from the Bible? (I think I know why men like this arrangement...)
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