Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 59 (9164 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,925 Year: 4,182/9,624 Month: 1,053/974 Week: 12/368 Day: 12/11 Hour: 1/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Bible on Sex, Love, and Marriage
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 302 (150215)
10-15-2004 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by arachnophilia
10-15-2004 6:37 PM


Arachnophilia writes:
quote:
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
The text does say that and, taken out of context, it can be used to support your view. But, the text also says:
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Ephesians 5:25
The model here is that we should love our wives as Christ loved the church.
How did Christ love the church?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by arachnophilia, posted 10-15-2004 6:37 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by nator, posted 10-15-2004 9:01 PM dpardo has replied
 Message 37 by arachnophilia, posted 10-15-2004 11:08 PM dpardo has not replied

dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 302 (150216)
10-15-2004 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by nator
10-15-2004 7:02 PM


Schrafinator writes:
quote:
To the extent that they both fulfill their roles, they will have a rewarding marriage.
But see, that's not what the evidence shows.
The evidence shows that, by definition, these roles lead to the highest divorce rates among all groups.
The lowest divorce rates come from non-believers.
Sadly, you are correct that the "Christian" marriages do not appear to have a lower divorce rate than those of non-believers.
I believe that the failed Christian marriages are as much in need of understanding and applying these doctrines as anyone else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by nator, posted 10-15-2004 7:02 PM nator has not replied

dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 302 (150219)
10-15-2004 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by nator
10-15-2004 7:10 PM


Schrafinator writes:
Do you have a best friend? Which one of you has the "authority" to make descisions for your relationship if you both disagree about something?
What usually ends up happening if your best friend and you disagree on a course of action?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by nator, posted 10-15-2004 7:10 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by nator, posted 10-15-2004 8:54 PM dpardo has replied

dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 302 (150220)
10-15-2004 8:27 PM


I appreciate your time and patience with me.
I have to go off-line now, but I will try to get to your questions this weekend or Monday!

nator
Member (Idle past 2200 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 35 of 302 (150226)
10-15-2004 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by dpardo
10-15-2004 8:22 PM


quote:
What usually ends up happening if your best friend and you disagree on a course of action?
Well, if it's a really major descision then we talk about it until we come to a mutual agreement that takes into account both of our opinions, wants, and needs.
If it is a minor "where do you want to go to get dinner"-type issue, then whoever feels the most strongly in their opinion, or whoever has the best reasoning for why to go to one retaurant over another gets to decide, usually.
Sometimes it is me who gets to decide, and sometimes it is my best friend.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by dpardo, posted 10-15-2004 8:22 PM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by dpardo, posted 10-16-2004 4:12 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2200 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 36 of 302 (150228)
10-15-2004 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by dpardo
10-15-2004 8:09 PM


quote:
The model here is that we should love our wives as Christ loved the church.
The problem in the Bible is that it lays out marriage/family as an extremely hierarchical construct.
1) God
2) Man
3) Woman
What kind of adult relationship can you ever hope to have with a woman if you view her as lower than you on the hierarchy?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by dpardo, posted 10-15-2004 8:09 PM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by dpardo, posted 10-16-2004 4:22 PM nator has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1375 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 37 of 302 (150249)
10-15-2004 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by dpardo
10-15-2004 8:09 PM


The model here is that we should love our wives as Christ loved the church.
How did Christ love the church?
i get the feeling you didn't read my post.
quote:
i don't care if he says that men should be good masters of their wives, he still says that men should be masters of their wives.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by dpardo, posted 10-15-2004 8:09 PM dpardo has not replied

dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 302 (150317)
10-16-2004 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by nator
10-15-2004 8:54 PM


Schrafinator,
Have you ever had a situation with your friend where you couldn't agree?
If so, what happened?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by nator, posted 10-15-2004 8:54 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by nator, posted 10-16-2004 6:28 PM dpardo has not replied

dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 302 (150318)
10-16-2004 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by nator
10-15-2004 9:01 PM


Schrafinator writes:
What kind of adult relationship can you ever hope to have with a woman if you view her as lower than you on the hierarchy?
You don't have to view her as "lower".
She is equal to you.
We simply have different roles.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by nator, posted 10-15-2004 9:01 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by nator, posted 10-16-2004 6:22 PM dpardo has replied

dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 302 (150321)
10-16-2004 4:27 PM


Does God care about how men treat their wives...
13 And this have ye done again, covering the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping, and with crying out, insomuch that he regardeth not the offering any more, or receiveth it with good will at your hand.
14 Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.
16 For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.
17 Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?
Malachi 2:13-17

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by nator, posted 10-16-2004 6:24 PM dpardo has replied
 Message 44 by nator, posted 10-16-2004 6:32 PM dpardo has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2200 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 41 of 302 (150338)
10-16-2004 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by dpardo
10-16-2004 4:22 PM


quote:
You don't have to view her as "lower".
She is equal to you.
But a leader and a follower in an intimate love relationship are not, by definition, equal.
The only time I have ever been a follower in a personal relationship is when I was a child under the leadership of my parents and older siblings.
Would you say that a child is equal to the parent in their relationship?
Besides, the Bible rather clearly indicates that women and men are not equal, and that men are to rule over women:
Gen 3:16
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to [b]thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.[i]
I Cor 11:7
For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
11:8
For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
11:9
Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
It is very clear in even a cursory reading of the Bible that women are not equal to men, but are subservient to men.
quote:
We simply have different roles.
Separate but equal?
Where have I heard that before?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by dpardo, posted 10-16-2004 4:22 PM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by arachnophilia, posted 10-16-2004 9:39 PM nator has replied
 Message 52 by dpardo, posted 10-18-2004 5:37 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2200 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 42 of 302 (150340)
10-16-2004 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by dpardo
10-16-2004 4:27 PM


But this is just an admonition to not be "treacherous".
It doesn't say anything about treating her as an equal adult.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by dpardo, posted 10-16-2004 4:27 PM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by dpardo, posted 10-18-2004 5:17 PM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2200 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 43 of 302 (150343)
10-16-2004 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by dpardo
10-16-2004 4:12 PM


quote:
Have you ever had a situation with your friend where you couldn't agree?
If so, what happened?
Well, in the case of one best frind, we are no longer friends.
In the case of my most best friend (my husband), we just keep working at it until we reach a compromise that is acceptable to both of us.
Since we are quite compatable and want the best for each other, the give and take all evens out in the end.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by dpardo, posted 10-16-2004 4:12 PM dpardo has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2200 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 44 of 302 (150344)
10-16-2004 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by dpardo
10-16-2004 4:27 PM


dpardo, I kind of feel like you skirted a major point of min that I made in a previous message...
quote:
If the husband completely ignores the wife's input, there will be strife and resentment.
But if a husband ultimately has the final say, isn't that an awful lot like a parent/child relationship?
When the man and wife, who are both mature adults, disagree, why should the man always have the final say, as if he is the parent and she is the child?
That a man should want his wife to submit to his dominance in this way is really icky.
That a woman should be taught to always submit to another's will to be a good wife is demeaning.
An adult relationship is one where neither person can simply overrule the other's will.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by dpardo, posted 10-16-2004 4:27 PM dpardo has not replied

dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 302 (150351)
10-16-2004 6:49 PM


Hi Schrafinator,
I have to go off-line now but I will certainly get to your questions as quickly as I can. It may not be until Monday, but I will get back to you.
Thanks!

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by nator, posted 10-17-2004 8:21 AM dpardo has replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024