The Bible on Sex, Love, and Marriage

Hey Dan Carroll,

quote:

---

We haven't heard from asciikerr yet... any word on that?

---

Didn't know this thread existed until now, a courtesy email would have been koo.. I'm barely on Message 14, gimme a bit to read through this and then I'll give you my 2 cents.

God's plan for Marriage is that we become One, you can only become one if you have two equals coming together, but that can be covered later. We can cover other aspects it bits & chunks of good information using Biblical Support if you will. I've seen the same trend of questions and myths concerning peoples pre-conceived notions of Biblical Marriage. Let's hit some of the finer points.Therefore a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh." (Gen 2:24; Matt 19:5; Mark 10:7-8; Eph 5:31).

quote:

---

dpardo says: "It is very clear in even a cursory reading of the Bible that women are not equal to men, but are subservient to men."

---

And the LORD God said, "It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him." -- Genesis 2:18
The Hebrew word used in "comparable" is neh-ghet, which means the "counterpart or other side" of a matched pair. They were indeed created equal according to God's Word found in the Bible. I don't see how you can argue otherwise. Two spiritually equal beings created by God, one serving the function of headship and the other functioning as a submissive helper, both working together to achieve a common goal. God added structure in marriage with man as the final authority among two equals to prevent chaos. KEEP IN MIND THIS WAS PART OF GOD's ORIGINAL PLAN...After the Fall of Man, the man & woman would contend against each other to have their own way (Gen 3:16). Any questions on this, want me to expand?

quote:

---

Dpardo says: "As in the situation with your best friend, the marriage would eventually fall."

---

Yes, I agree with this...The key ingredient in every marriage needs to be The Lord. When marriage starts to break down you can rest assured God is the one who is going to keep your marriage alive, and help you become the person He wants you to be. God has provided instructions in the Bible to help us through the journeys and joys of marriage, if you value your marriage then seek His Words. If you don't have a match made in heaven, its probably because you have kicked God out of your marriage. This is also where a marriage before God becomes a Covenant with Him, being locked in this Covenant will help you see things differently. You no longer seek for an easy way out of the problem, but for a way through the problem..."...and the two shall become one flesh'; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate." -- Jesus, Mark 10:8-9

quote:

---

schrafinator says: "That is not an equal partnership. Nor is it a relationship between adults. That is a parent/child relationship."

---

So is it possible to voluntarily submit to a proper authority without being forced into submission?
Absolutely, our greatest example of this is found in Jesus Christ when He submitted to God the Father. Being the second person to the Trinity, Jesus shows that He is not inferior to the Father, women also being the second person in their marriage are not inferior to their husband. Just as God the Father and Jesus the Son have different roles in their Holy Union, both husband and wife also maintain different roles in their marriage to the Lord. Our model for headship and submission is found through Jesus' self-sacrificing love for His Church and His submission to the Father's Authority."submitting to one another in the fear of God." -- Ephesians 5:21Women, you are to submit to your own husband, but this does not require you to submit to anything that would compromise your walk with the Lord, or violate your conscience in any way. Jesus doesn't ask anything of His church that is not according to God's Word. Scriptures declare, "Wives, submit to your own husbands, as is fitting in the Lord" (Col 3:18). Women are never to submit unto things that do not line up with God's plan for us. A wife's submission to her husband is not based on the husband's superiority or the wife's inferiority but on the husband's role established by God at the creation (1 Cor 11:8-9).Want More?Too often, guys will toss around "My wife is to submit to me as the Bible teaches!" as they make reference to "Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord" (Eph 5:22). They simply overlook verse 21 which plainly reads "submitting to one another in the fear of God." There is indeed a chain of command within the Bible, God is the head, the husband falls under the Lord's authority, the wife under the husband, and the children under the parents. In Eph 5:25, Paul calls on husbands to model the headship of Christ's sacrificial love, the kind of love where we are willing to lay down our life and serve that person even if it means suffering. Notice that Paul's emphasis is not on our right to authority but on our "obligation" to exercise "headship" through the love and care for our wife. We are to love our wives as we love ourselves, woe to those who don't love themselves or their wives! Ephesians 5:28-29 puts it this way, "So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church." Love your wife, nourish and cherish the relationship you have with her. God wants us to be joyful, happy and content but much of our joy comes from being focused on Him and not on our own circumstances. A husband who follows Jesus' examples will exercise his headship, not by forcing his wife into a mold that stifles her initiative, gifts or personhood but rather by encouraging her in the further development of her mental and spiritual potential. The loving kindness found in sacrificial headship eliminates all the evils associated with a hierarchical marriage and allows the two to "become one flesh." The Lord has given us as men the role as leader, and we need to fulfill our responsibility."Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her."
-- Ephesians 5:25

schrafinator says:

quote:

---

...and the wife always must, without any exceptions, abide by her husband's descisions when they disagree, right?

---

There is an exception, it shouldn't violate our "walk" with the Lord.
"Wives, submit to your own husbands, as is fitting in the Lord" (Col 3:18).

quote:

---

Do you have any evidence to show that marriages in which the wife is submissive to the husband and the husband is dominant over the woman are less "chaotic" than marriages based upon egalitarian principles?

---

Not really sure about secular couples, I mean Hollywood Marriages barely see their marriage go beyond a year or three. Take a good look at Evangelical & Christian Married couples such as: Billy Graham, Chuck Missler, John Mann, Steve Carr, and Dr. James Dobson (Focus on the Family), to name a few.

quote:

---

Is it a sign of a mature adult to submit their will to another's in a love relationship?

​

Is it a sign of a mature adult to require their partner in a love relationship to be submissive to their will?

---

Yes, and we as Christians look to Jesus for this example. How He humbled Himself, and lived a selfless life...

quote:

---

Also, can you explain how the "submissive" woman can be considered equal to the man who has "headship"?

---

The word "submit" in Eph 5:22 is from the military term hupotasso, which means "to place under" or be "subordinate" to authority (1 Peter 3:1). This isn't due to a weakness or inferiority, nor is one better than the other. It is an order God created, the husband is the head of the home, just as Jesus is the head of the Church. This is not to be confused with obedience which was found in slavery as Paul noted in Ephesians 6:5, "Bondservants, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ." The Greek word for "obedience" here is Hupakouo meaning as subordinates they are "to obey" and "yield or be weak" much like children are to obey their parents, or slaves obeying their masters. Husbands and wives are to become one flesh, equal in God's eyes while serving different roles, they are not to emulate the relationship of master over slave."There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. -- Paul, Galatians 3:28"

quote:

---

The one who gives the orders is in charge of the one who takes them, right? The submissive one never gets to give the orders, correct?

---

They are equal with the man having final authority in the decision, who said anything about "Bossing" the other person around? Both Husband and Wife are JOINT HEIRS together...both working toward the same cause, they are just serving different roles in doing so. I'm not sure that you've read the above, so I'll reiterate:

quote:

---

In Eph 5:25, Paul calls on husbands to model the headship of Christ's sacrificial love, the kind of love where we are willing to lay down our life and serve that person even if it means suffering. Notice that Paul's emphasis is not on our right to authority but on our "obligation" to exercise "headship" through the love and care for our wife.

---

Dan Carroll Says:

quote:

---

Even if we assume that a marriage needs a leader to avoid chaos, that there must be a specific pecking order or the marriage will fall into unholy chaos, what automatically makes the husband fit for this role?

---

May I recommend a not-so-short read on the Origin of Man's Headship. Genesis helps clarify the equality and gender distinctions. Man and woman are equals in nature because they share the same human flesh, bone and spiritual value before God. Adam was already functioning as the "headship" over Eve before the "Fall of Man" came about.

"you can only become one if you have two equals coming together"Coragyps says:

quote:

---

Where did this absurdity come from? That makes no sense on any level whatever, not even arithmetical!

---

The answer your looking for is found in Companionship.
The Hebrew word for "companionship" is khaw-bare, it literally means to be knit together with another person. The Bible explains that this process of knitting together should take place when two believers love each other. Companionship in marriage is like knitting a beautiful sweater, choosing daily to intertwine your lives together. Every time you choose companionship over independence and selfishness it becomes one more stitch in your sweater. This knitting requires your careful attention and a willingness to devote lots of time and work to accomplish the task set before you. In Col 2:2, Paul prayed for the Colossian Church "that their hearts may be encouraged being knit together in love..." If believers in Christ are to share in this togetherness, how much more for a husband and wife who love each other. To have a man and a woman who have given and pledged themselves to companionship with each other before the Lord is just awesome. Allowing God to knit their hearts together in the most intimate companionship that could possibly exist between two people.Man and Woman are Equal in God's Eyes, yet one apart from the other makes them incomplete. They being incomplete w/o the other are are to come together as One. Does that make more sense? If that's to theological, then don't get me started on the Church Body.

Indeed, the state of affairs with many Christians today is sad. I knew 1 in every 2 ended in divorce, but did not know they topped the charts...wow! I was reading a related article (America’s Divorce Plague Infects the Church) and they pretty much gave much of the same grimm stats and information with some highlights down below. I know that many churches also supports those statistics as credible.

quote:

---

Every year, thousands of Christians decide, for whatever reason, to end their marriages. A study by the Barna Research Group says that Christians actually tend to get divorced slightly more often than non-Christians.

​

Among born again believers, 27 percent are currently or have previously been divorced. Compare that to 24 percent of adults who are not Christians.

​

And this disturbing trend of Christians divorcing is beginning to hurt the witness of Christians everywhere.

---

quote:

---

Atheists seemed delighted to announce online that according to the same Barna study, they have the lowest average divorce rates. They say having a belief in God makes no difference in one's married life.

​

Meanwhile, homosexual web sites give tips on how to shame Christians. At one point, a certain web site says to Christians: "The jig is up folks. The pot's calling the kettle black."

---

*Ouch*

quote:

---

But if that is God's game plan, then why do Christians seem just as willing to file for divorce as anyone else? One reason is Christians fall victim to the very same unrealistic expectations that non-Christians do.

​

Jordan says the bottom line is Christians just are not living what they say they believe. "We need a spiritual awakening so that disconnect is removed and what we believe is practiced in the way we live," he said.

​

Walch believes part of the problem is that not enough people are standing up for God’s definition of marriage. "There has been such an erosion of marital commitment and vows and understanding marriages even in the Christian community we are embarrassed to stand and make the case for a covenant relationship," he said.

---

I personally like the below portion:

quote:

---

Once couples understand that marriage is a three-way covenant between a man, a woman, and God, Krasnow says they have to determine to make it work no matter how difficult it seems. "This is about surrendering to your promise, to your pledge, to your commitment. You said 'I do.' So do it. Work your marriages to the bone," she said.

---

Times are certainly changing, many who call themselves Christians today don't read the Bible or don't believe in the Bible. Many churches don't preach against Divorce, most don't even teach about marriage or divorce. Too many "Churches" today are focused on seeker-sensitive preaching that is intended to bring in people (numbers) w/o really building up or equipping the saints. I myself first started going to a Baptist Church, he always had some "happy-go-lucky" message for us. I eventually setted in a Church where the pastor doesn't pull-punches when it comes down to our sins or shortcomings in following after God. My church teaches about Marriage, Divorce and all that pertains to a healthy Christian life.Sadly, today there is sometimes so little distinction between the believer and non-believer. That is what happens when people quit focusing on God and instead become entangled with the world around them. I myself had no idea what God intended for my marriage until I studied what the Bible had to say on Marriage. If you follow His blue print on marriage then it will be on a solid foundation, if you don't then chances are it will crumble when adversity begins to beat against it. Unfortunately, the saddest thing about most Christians today is that they've become lazy in their studies and most don't know what God expects or wants from them. This is also why Heresy and Cults have grown so large over the past few decades. Doh...gotta get off my soap box now. If you know & follow God's plan for marriage, you can't go wrong...

Keep in mind, God's original intent before the "Fall" was for the two in marriage to become one, and never to seperate until death.In ancient times they also practiced Polygamy and Levirate Marriages. Both practices were done ...and possibly out of "NECESSITY" in "SOME" cases. This would also keep them (Women) from becoming widows, slaves, beggars or prostitutes w/o the man to provide for them. Levirate marriages also protected the women, preserved their husband's name, the memory and interests of the fallen husband. As per Deut 25:7-10/Gen 38:8, we see that this practice was also non-binding, provided the person didn't mind getting spit upon and have his sandal removed. There is no denying these things occured...Jesus called us back to God's Original Plan.Matthew 19:4-6
And He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning "made them male and female,'and said, "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate." Does that answer your question?
Or were you looking for more info on what made them unclean?

purpledawn says:

quote:

---

What I see is a woman who looks to others to meet her needs instead of herself.

​

I don't feel there is enough true marital information in the Bible to prepare couples for the reality of marriage. Especially since Hebrew/Jewish marriages were arranged.

​

...plus he recruited men away from their families for his mission.

---

At the heart of Christianity is our dependence on God. She stated that she "focuses on Jesus to meet her needs for Love, Meaning & Purpose." People are not perfect, someone will always let you down, you will let yourself down but God is faithful and will never forsaken you. So, would you rather depend on yourself, your spouse etc., or on the one person who will never forsaken you? Yes, old traditional marriages were arranged, including Adam & Eve's. For the most part, do believe God also arranged my marriage. I'm not sure where you get the idea that He recruited men away from their families. If anything, women/wives served a great role in the early church. Do you have any specific verses to support this?schrafinator says:

quote:

---

But isn't the husband the spiritual leader of the marriage, so wouldn't he be the one to determine what does and doesn't "violate our walk with the Lord"?

​

In a dominant/submissive relationship, which person has more power?

​

To be blunt, any woman who allows herself to submit to anyone in the way you describe is a doormat with self-esteem issues, and any man who wants a wife who is submissive to him is insecure or has a too-large ego and sense of entitlement.

​

The dominant/submissive gender roles you have described are not healthy, adult behaviors.

---

The spiritual leader does not determine what does or doesn't violate a persons walk. The Bible determines what violates that walk, and the person who hopefull reads the Bible will understand that. This common misconception is a great tool for cults who live in polygamy farms. They claim to know what God wants and the women is then dependant on the husband's knowledge of scripture. The husband or leader can always lead you astray, that is why it becomes important to know what the Bible says and not take another word for it. Heh...what is the trip about Power all about? God has all the power, the husband and wife "both" submit to the Lord. If the husband lives for himself then obviously he will wield a "power" that is unjust, if he lives for God then he won't. This is why women & men are to marry God Loving & God Fearing spouses. This way the marriage is not centered on their own needs, their own wants or selfish actions, but on "selfless" actions in serving the Lord. The dominant and submissive relationship work when both live to serve God and not their own selfish needs. To come to Christ means surrendering yourself and following God's Will for your life, obviously if they are still excersising their rule/power over their wife, then they are not really living for Christ but for themselves. This comes back to the power many cults wield using the fear of God on their spouses. Sad but true..Does any of this make sense or are we running in circles?
If both man & women concentrate on pleasing God in all their actions, this will remove the selfishness, pride and that independant Will that serves to seperate the marriage over time. Live for God and in His best interest in your marriage will bring blessings. Live for yourself and that selfishness will cause problems. Live for your spouse and become the doormat that may grow resentment and strife.

quote:

---

So, when there is a difference of Biblical interpretation between a husband and a wife, isn't it the spiritual leader of the family (the husband) who determines the correct interpretation?

---

The husband of course and to remain conflict free they can also seek counsel with a spiritual leader in their church or consult the Pastor. Sounds fair doesn't it!?Did you know there are also situations where the wife is the spiritual leader and the one who calls the shots in the home? They (women) don't like it and pray & that the husband would rightfully exercise his duties and headship as the husband. Sometimes the husband doesn't want the responsibility or carry the burden, so they leave the wife to make all the decisions.Funny how things work..

Dan Carroll says:

quote:

---

I'm still wondering what specially qualifies the man for this leadership role. Again... not how it started, but what qualifies every single man, and disqualifies every single woman. Asking again... have you honestly never seen a marriage where the wife is simply smarter than the husband?

---

What qualifies man for the Role!? I'd say its God appointed, there are many other times times God has used a woman not only to serve His purpose but in some occasions to show up the man who didn't want to step up to assume their rightful role. Deborah shamed Barak into action (Judges 4:9).Yes, even in the Bible there are stories of where the wife was smarter than the husband and it was very evident. You'd probably want to read it from scripture to get the full effect of just how much smarter, humble and more intelligent she was over her significant other.

quote:

---

And I'm also still wondering what excellent advice the Bible has on sex and love.

---

Here is what I've found so far, although I haven't done any major studies on the area as of yet. Is that what you were looking for, maybe something more specific?

quote:

---

How long have you been married?

---

1 year this November My church wouldn't marry us until we went through the pre-marital counseling, and conduct marital counseling during life's half-time to ensure we're still on target with God's purpose for our marriage. I've also only been a Christian for a short 17 months and its been Fabulous!Does any of that discount what I have to say!?

quote:

---

"They" as in ALL of 'em? Please tell me you didn't mean it that way....

---

Sorry, I should have been a bit more clear on that. I was being way too general with my wording. Flying Hawk says:

quote:

---

So it's all about the little thing that hangs betwen your legs??If god appoints man for the role why doesen't she teach them better? Why don't all men just know god things? Are you appointed by god?

---

Its not always about that "thing" between the legs, remember the Old Testament times also had Eunuchs.Most people correlate God with "He" also, just FYI. Most men know what is morally right & wrong, but just like the sinful people that we are, we choose not to do the right thing most times. We also have God's Word, the Bible to help direct us in doing what is pleasing to the Lord. Isn't it odd that through out history and all over the world, you will always find humans worshipping something!? Do you suppose God left that in us so that we would seek Him out!?God appoints many people to carry His Will, whether they know it or not. When God punished Israel & Judah, He appointed Babylon and other countries to punish His people. In much the same way we are told in Romans 13 that God has ordained those who break the laws. It gives those doing evil a reason to fear etc.,Did that answer your question?

quote:

---

Only purpose in marrage is to love each other. Remeber about forsaking all others.

---

Hehe...if it were only that simple! It is very possible to love someone w/all your heart and yet still grow apart from them and miss God's purpose by which we grow together as one. Yes, all other external relationships; Friends, Family, etc., need to become secondary so that they do not interfere with your marriage. How often have you heard of a relative or close friend coming between 2 married people and causing havoc? Happens a lot...
One point to remember though, among Christians...God is the foundation that we build our marriage upon.Is that what you meant?

schrafinator says:

quote:

---

So, if the husband is the one deciding what violates her walk with the lord and what doesn't, doesn't that just mean that he is basically running the show?

​

It wasn't because the men in the marriages just stopped wanting to dominate their wives, because no sexist willingly gives up power.

---

Your correct in saying that the men in these marriages were sexist and not willing to give up this power. All too often, men abuse what power they have for their own selfish needs. In many cases these individuals also join churches to abuse what authority they have in order to indulge in their own perversions. So here we're talking about God's blueprint for marriage being abused & defiled by those seeking nothing more than to serve themselves. With any system, if a person is determined to abuse it for his own needs then they likely will. For those who are truly seeking what God intended for marriage, for those that truly love and fear the Lord...it works!Jesus said, "if you love me, keep my commandments." I don't believe these people that use marriage as a tool for their own needs have much love for Jesus, else they would indeed obey what has been set in place.Dan Carroll says:

quote:

---

What inherent quality is there in men that is lacking in women that makes us especially qualified for leadership.

​

So why on Earth should any person submit to someone who isn't as smart as they are?

---

God has indeed equipped us to fit our gender roles. Man is specifically suited for the role of leadership, much like he is not well suited for staying home and loving on the kids. Who is more likely to be the protector of the house? Who is better suited to raise the children in a loving and caring environment? Who is more willing to listen to a persons hurt feelings and emotions? I can tell you that my wife works during the day, yet she'd rather be home to raise the children, teaching them to read/write and just loving on them. It would certainly be better than having a daycare worker/relative raising and influencing your children in a way that goes against your wishes. Yes she enjoys her job, she has great co-workers and gets satisfaction for working..but it pales in comparison from the joy one gets from being an active participant in the raising of their children.All through my tour of duty in the military I asked myself, "why do I have to follow the orders of someone that doesn't have a clue?" Imagine a military with no authority, no rank structure, everybody being independant and seeking to rule over others...Chaos would be the end result! In marriage, God is at the top of the Chain of Command, the husband is Commadant, the wife is Sergeant Major and the children are recruits. So when marital roles aren't followed then chaos erupts and problems arise. Sure there are those that abuse this authority, just like they do in the military...I have served with many who abused their rank and yet for all of that, the Military still worked even with those people who abused it.Again, God's blue print for marriage works for those who are honestly seeking the best for their marriage. And yes, much like any system set in place for our benefit, there are those who will seek to abuse it.

Dpardo says:

quote:

---

"I agree with what you said but you misquoted me here"

---

Ascii*Kerr says: Oops, my bad... Forgive me.. Dan Carroll says:

quote:

---

I can't conceive of a more piss-poor attitude toward sex. "All those impulses you got going on? They are bad. Wicked. Naughty. Sinful. So stamp them down, quick."

---

Hehe, okay I could have been a bit more specific in this. These "wicked sexual desires" involve; animals, same sex, prostitution, adultery, etc., Do you see any benefit in these lusts?

quote:

---

But hey, let's fix that with nigh-on masochistic levels of repression.

---

Nobody is saying you should repress these, only that outside of marriage, they are not according to God's Will. You can indulge in fantasies if:
A.) It is consensual with your spouse.
B.) Does not violate the sanctity of marriage (adultery, same sex etc.,)All your doing is trying to find fault with something that was put in place to benefit us. If that is the case you can find fault in anything, because nobody is perfect. But rather focusing on everything else, you focus on God's plan...It works for those that Love & follow God's commandments. I think that part is crystal...

Seems you've been pretty busy shooting down everything that was offered, how'bout you offer some great solutions that you truly believe work. I'd be delighted to know your views on marriage, sex, love & marriage...